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The Dive Bar Rock Star Podcast
The Dive Bar Rock Star Podcast

Episode 31 · 1 year ago

Jeffrey Mince- We Are What We Drum (Nina Hagen, Judge Roughneck)

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Drummer, Producer, Jeffrey Mince, walks through his emotional journey from touring drummer to full time Buddhist monk and back to drumming. He tells his story of moving from Denver to Los Angeles and how he landed the gig with German punk rocker, Nina Hagen. He talks about his experience being signed with a band to a major label only to be dropped before the record was even released. Jeff also discusses the challenges of living in a smaller music scene.

www.jeffreymince.com


www.divebarrockstar.com

If you are a fan of the dive bar Rockstar podcast and would like to help support the show, there's a great way that you could do that and start a new fashion trend. We have a new merchandise page on the website, which features t shirts and hoodies that are available for sale on Amazon. Just click on merchandise and the top menu and all of the links will be there. or go directly to dive Bar rockstarcom merchandise. Get started early on your Christmas shopping at dive Bar Rock starcom. Welcome to the dive Bar Rockstar podcast, a show exploring the lives of professional musicians of all types, touring musicians, recording artist, songwriters, engineer's bar bands, wedding bands and anyone making their living in the music industry. Whether you've dreamed of being a professional or you already are one, this is the podcast for you. I'm your host, Eric Baines, and I hope that you not only find some entertainment here, but also some helpful tips, trade secrets and ideas that will help you achieve your dreams. So it was somewhat recently announced that Dwight Yocum, with me on Bass and vocals, will be playing red rocks amphitheater in Morrison, Colorado on the thirty one of this month, and it's only the second time that I've played there, but it's it's a big deal for me, you know, having grown up in Denver and in that area. So that was always the dream Gig to get, if you could only play red rocks, you know, and if you've never seen a show there you definitely should, because it's one of the most beautiful venues in the country and the history is just insane, like the the Beatles played there and Jimmy Hendrix, John Denver, the Blues Brothers Carol King, the carpenters, Sonny and share, you know, among just hundreds and hundreds of other awesome acts. You too recorded their under a blood Red Sky album and concert film. They're so I'm saw, I'm a little bit excited and it's going to be awesome. August thirty one. And then I just happen to get a text from an old friend from Denver not too long ago, and so I thought, well, that's that's meant to be, so let's have them on as a guest. He's an awesome drummer. He was a member of my original band in the S, the fringe in Denver, and we played hundreds of gigs together in that group and the other other groups before he moved to Los Angeles and out here he became the drummer for the German punk rock star Nina Hoggin, and after that he was signed to electra records with a band called Ghetto blaster, and then his life took all kinds of other crazy turns. So I'll just let you listen to the interview and and enjoy it. But he's a great guy and a awesome drummer, so I hope you enjoy my conversation with Jeffrey Mints. First of all, YOU'RE STILL IN DENVER? Are you'RE BACK IN DENVER? I'm back in Denver. I basically came back for the for the pandemic. HOW IS DENVER? You know, we that's where we met. That's how you know I kind of Miss it a lot of times. I mean I love La like love it, you know what I mean, like it's I found my home and it's been so amazing, but I do still have this romantic notion of Denver and memories of playing in the scene. So are you? You're gigging around there and stuff. Are you obviously studio and yeah, yeah, I was gigging up until the pandemic and you know, I was took me a minute to to reconnect with the people that I've been playing with, you know, because I was gone for m fifty, ten or fifteen years, right. I ended up playing with some of the same people and, you know, end up playing reggae on the rocks with the you know, judge roughneck other bands. So I got to do some pretty pretty big gigs and then essentially the locally, locally big gigs, right, and essentially the pandemic shut everything down and I'm just regrouping now. Got You. So obviously you're in your studio. Is that where you live as well, or you have a separate spot? No, no, I have a separate starts. I have a separate spot where I live. Yeah, this is just, you know, it's basically a warehouse space. Okay, at Twenty for seven, and it's pretty cool. It's like an old grocery warehouse, so you get like these wood floors and brick walls and all that kind of stuff. Cool stuff for recording drums. It is. Yeah, yeah, that's something I focused on during the pandemic was getting my you know, like my kit miked up really well. So it's just plug and play and being able to do some tracks. I've got a few projects going on just based on being able to send tracks here hither and yon over the Internet. Yeah, absolutely, sort of essential to everybody now. Really is kind of glad that happened in a way, because it's really made me aware that you...

...can actually do that really successfully. It's not the same thing in the same room, of course, but you know right. But now everybody, I don't know that anyone tracks in the same room anymore anyway. You know, it's a good, excellent point. It's not even a thing. You know, it's too expensive. Yeah, yeah, you know what I was thinking about because I was listening to the Leland Scar podcast recently and just what he was saying about his in ears. He's like, I'm not going to wear any of your I didn't want to wear any ears, because there's the vibe and being able to talk to people and I think just even like between takes, when you're sitting in the control room hanging out with your bandmates forever you're recording with, can really open up the actual track in the long run. I was thinking about it. The first time I saw you play was with Sun Dance of the men in blue back. I remember that band where you end up in. I was eventually in it. Yeah, and there was like Blues and sort of Rock and blues, you know. So was that? was that something you enjoyed playing? We both sort of came from that blue scene, because after that the next band we're in was the fringe, because I basically stole you out of the band and that was my band. But then when that cord of collapsed, I was like, I just want to Gig, I want to play my bass, I want to show up and I want to go home. I don't want to be a band leader anymore, you know. So then I went back into the blues, but the Blues and Denver and the S and s was kind of like a thing. It was a pretty pretty serious scene and you, being a college educated drummer, was was that a fun Gig for you? Yeah, you know, I think again, I was. I was a punk then and I don't think I appreciated what I was being handed at the time and I would get a little belligerent. I you know, I can I this will probably will make it into the podcast, but I swear that I refused to bring it ride symbol to that Gig for a while and I'm like, I look back in them mere like what a fucking little Dick, you know really, and I don't know why, honestly, but I think I did have a bit of an attitude for a while there. But looking back on that, you're right, like that whole scene was pretty pretty happening. You know, there was a lot of great blues bands. There are a lot of great you know, I was playing a lot of reggae and sky at that time as well. Ryan. I remember that the GIG scene, like the clubs were packed out and you know, I mean the pay was crappy and it's still pretty crappy. I think it hasn't changed much. I think it were Super Fun and, like people like you were available, like the level of musicianship was was really high, from what I can recall. You know, it was I learned a lot. And then the studio work that came along with that. Again, I learned so much. That was really helpful when I ended up, you know, in La and you know, being presented with like, you know, click tracks and prerecorded drum tracks that are needed to be replaced or whatever it was I was was working with that at least had some experience and I owe that all to Denver. Very cool. And then, like I said, I kind of stole you and I had a brand band with my brother and another friend from high school, Tony Hanneman, and we had a band called the fringe, which we were kind of an all original band when we met you. Well, I'm not all original. We were never all original, but we did covers that we wanted to or, like I remember, like playing in bold or whatever, people everywhere. He got Sweet Home Alabama, so we made up like most fucked up version of sweet home Albam you know. Yeah, that was a fun band, you know, and I felt I felt like I've always got I think about tone every once in a while. You called him tone. Yeah, yeah, and I think about him. Everyone's well, I kind of wonder what he's up to, you know, and but I just remember that fun. It was the song writing, honestly, that I thought attracted me to the band. And then again, there's a level of musicianship that I have come to appreciate, that that you know, people like you offered at that time. That helped me raise the bar as far as my own playing went. Well, that's cool. You know anything about tone? Yeah, in fact, I just saw him over Christmas. In fact, I mean, dude, if you're there the next time I'm in town, we should all get together. We actually had this was before I got the Dwight Gigs. I was four years ago, four and a half years ago, we had a little fringe reunion of the original for guys with Kevin Lane on drums. We didn't play anything, but we just all met at a bar, and so maybe we'll next time. We'll have to have an extended fringe re and yeah, you know, we'll have you and Jimmy Oozel was was subbing for you. It's all really and Dan Farmer. Dan Farmer was in that band. Yeah, he was to replace my brother, which is opening why I got out of it, because it was like I got to because if I then we had gotten into the top forty scene and so they were had all these expectations of top forty stuff. We're doing less and less originals and your subbing out, my brother's subbing out, and I'm just like, I don't want to do it. Anymore. You know, it just like the soul killing experience of top forty clubs, playing five a week. You know, yeah,...

...yeah, I did that. I feel I'm glad that I played my drums for that many hours in a row, for that long, but you're right, it kind of sucks the life out of you if you're only doing that. I think that's why, you know, both you and I left sort of the the relative comfort, at least for me, I left the relative of comfort of being, you know, on call and steady gigs and just like bailed out and like okay, fuck it, I'm going to I'm going to. I started out in San Francisco and I ended up playing in Blues Clubs. They're about a year before I transitioned to Los Angeles, to but I remember one time we had a whole week like cancel or something, and you were just like, honestly, I'm so relieved to not have to do that week of top forty gigs. Wow, very telling situation for me, because I'm just kind of going through it at the same time of just like I didn't want to do those gigs either. You know what I mean. How how do you think that affected your you know, did that affect your decision to move to La is that that was really honestly good eight years before I left, you know, because then I went on and got the GIG with Nelson Ranjel. After while I was with the Cretan Holly Band for three or four years and then I got the Gig with Nelson Ranjel, smooth jazz saxoplayer, you know, saxophone player, and that sort of changed my whole world. At that point I had moved up a level. He's signed to a label in New York, so I get to travel now and, you know, getting one or you know, I'm getting a track or two on his record where I get to play and you know, Willie's on the same record and like, you know, like I'm starting to move in a situation where it's like it started. Honestly, I mean this podcast not supposed to be about me, but it started to get weird to come home and no offense, local musician, but it was like the conversation start to get harder when people don't really understand what it's like to go in the pressure of playing a Gig in New York, you know, you know, compared to coming home to Denver, and it's a kind of a hard thing to explain, but when I went to visit La and I just thought I'm just now I'm surrounded by people who do what I do. They drive nice cars, they have houses, they understand, you know, and Denver's awesome, great musicians, but it just was so far from where I wanted to be. I guess, you know, that was really the thing that started making me think I need to to move. I mean, honestly, the fringe experience was interesting because I wanted to be toto in the S, when it was like two princes and all these jam bands were like, you know, we're the thing, and being in bold near Boulder, which is like the jam band capital the world at that point, I just did not fit into the scene at all. Our Band did not, you know, I was trying to go through this rb, you know, slick pop production, and the world wanted, you know, three chords played loudly with a strange voice over it. Yeah, well, you know the it's kind of what I'm confronting now, because I've been, you know, in this area for, you know, over a year and then, honestly, I was I was I was playing gigs and what happens is that you start to realize that there's a difference in the commitment to your instrument. You were not being challenged in a city like Los Angeles. And some of us are like want that challenge. Some of us are like, I want to be like, you know, challenged like you know, intellectually and musically. You know, I want to throw myself into situations that are going to be hard, you know, and then people like that leave the comfort of their local band scene, you know, right. And then if you come back. So coming back from La I know a lot of good musicians, but none of them have the level of commitment or professionalism. And I'M gonna get like stocked and staff, but it doesn't feel like the level of professionalism because La is a it's a professional entertainment industry. If you were if you're not good enough, there's ten people right behind you who are good enough, right, and so you got to be good, you know, you have to have your shit together, whereas on a local scene that there's not that much pressure to be good, right. And so the the level of playing for many local bands is to me it's not as high as I would like and if I say it said anything about it in the context of the band, I would come across as like an arrogant fuck, but to have you say it back to me and that we can communicate on that level, it's just absolutely true. You know, to have the guts to move to La to, you know, probably New York. I barely ever lived there, you have to really, really really want to be up for the challenge of being faced with great musicians everywhere you...

...go. Yeah, as exactly it. That's exactly right. And if you're the kind of person who see somebody way better than you and says, Oh my God, I'm going to bury my instrument in the ground, I'm never going to play again, La's not the town for you. If you're the kind of person who sees somebody way better than you and says, I got to go home and practice, yeah, that's a person who's gonna Thrive, and that's what I loved about it as well. I mean, I think, you know, I feel like that's where we connected, you know, as musicians as well. I feel like that was the thing because when I saw you at the time I had a fine drummer, you know, and Kevin Lahman, the fringe. And but this was before Kevin came to La and he's sort of fresh out of see you and Boulder, and it was not we didn't see eye to eye as far as grooves. And then I played with you and Sun Dance and we could, like, in the middle of a shuffle, change up the groove or do something different and it was still funky and it was still you know, it was all the pocket was there and I was like this is what I want in my band, you know, I need some someone to start with the pocket in the groove and not the chops necessarily, you know, but that was that was yes, that was the ultimate thing. It was like you get frustrated with the musicianship and and you get to La and there's never a lack of musicianship like the like I said, there's I mean really, there's more like thirty guys that are right waiting. Thank you. Okay, get up. I think conservative, that's for sure, and they're all incredible, you know. And then they've all come from there. They're the best guy in their town and they came down there. So you moved La and what was the first thing you did when you got out here? Did you know some friends or how did you get started? Yeah, there had been a migration of musicians from the from the Denver and the northern Colorado area. So by the time I got out there I had I knew, let's see, a number of people and there was a big, huge hip hop orchestra called the codaka at h and that was a Jeff Guya goes and Josh Lopez. These are all Colorado people and they all came out to la and started sort of like infiltrating various different you know, like scenes, and so I pretty much had a had a Gig at the temple bar as soon as I got there. Do you remember the temple bar? Yeah, very much. Santa Monica, yeah, yeah, and sound of Monica. Yeah, and I was playing with a band called Rhythm Room Model Stars, and you know that's that's Josh Lopez, who's, you know, as far as songwriting goes, he's a guitar player, but you know, it's been nominated for a few grammys because he's Co written with Oh will I am and a few other people. And you know Davy Chegwidden, who's a percussionist who's actually I'm his his son's Godfather, does a lot of work out there in the studios and you know, like has done a lot of video game work stuff like that. So, you know, it's made a living as a percussionist in La. But these are all Colorado people kind of migrated out there. Kabe Rostagar is a Colorado Guide. Do you know of him? He's a and that's named rings such a bell. He's like a cover of Bass Player magazine. Bass player got you, but he's a Colorado Guy. Used to do sessions with him in Tenver all the time. He's on everybody's record now. So anyway, by the time I got out there, I was I had a place to stay, I had some gigs and I was able to, you know, at least get by for a while living in like a group musician house in North Hollywood some place and live in the dream. Yeah, it was rough. It was rough for sure. You know, it's like hot dogs from seven eleven for dinner every night and but it was it was fun. I was yeah, you know, I really enjoyed that challenge. There's a lot of great places to play in La at least at that time. Yeah, smaller venues, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's changing all the time. It's going to be interesting to see what what survives the pandemic and what doesn't. You know, as far as that play, but I think the demand from music right now is off the chain because everyone's been deprived. Yeah, so it's sold out shows and crowded venues at this point, since we just opened up like two weeks ago or something. Yeah, did you you? Have you been a gigging yet? or You guys, is your tour just starting? We've done like once a month to our first run was April, so we went thirteen months, yeah, with no GIG. It was a hole in my heart when I think about that, like I can't believe it how long it's been since I'd played the GIG. Yeah, yeah, I mean, honestly, for me I just needed a break and I needed the world to stop for a minute so I could, you know, wife pregnant and I built the studio and I'm on the road all the time. So then I had a year to be in it and and it was just I just needed a break so bad, I think, because that's the one thing about Denver that's attractive to me. In my brain now, it's like the pressure in La...

...even no matter what level you get to. It's always there, it's never eventually, it just it's exhausting, you know. Wouldn't it be nice to just go to a gig where, no matter what you do, everyone's going to love you and just hire you back? Wow, if you're I've been missing La like a lot, like just a ton, like I really I don't know. I think. I think you could come back and it would be great and everybody would love you, but I pretty sure that you would start to feel the way I feel, which is like not challenged. You could play the best Gig and all of Denver and it wouldn't be as as professional as I think you're used to, right, and that that's like. So what? Why it? Why is that like something that that we strive for? It? I think it's just like being good at your craft. Yeah, you know, and that's if that's who you are, which, you know, even when I was teaching Buddhism full time and not playing drums, I still would hear music or listen to music and and have that thing in my heart. You know, that was like, oh, that's who I am, you know, and and being good at it is important to me. And so when I come into a band that I feel like could be better, I'll generally say something about it, and that doesn't always go over that well, you know, unless you're in a situation where it's other people that have that same drive. You know. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm afraid you'd come back to Denver and for a long time you didn't. You'd be like Oh, this is nice, it's quite, it's peaceful, and you be like Shit, it's too quiet, it's too peaceful, there's not enough challenges. You know, you're probably totally right, because I get old enough to where you don't want to Gig. Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah, I always just say that too, like if I wasn't a musician, I probably would have never left Denver because it's it's a gorgeous place to live. It's pretty amazing, you know, although if I never see snow again, I'll be fine with that too. I'm not excited about it, but well, that's totally true. So, so you eventually get the Nina hogging GIG. Is that kind of your first big Gig when you got out there? Yeah, honestly, that was another Colorado connection because the bass player in her band was somebody I knew from Colorado days. I never actually knew him, this Guy Brad Van Lunin, but you know we knew of each other and we had run in tea and into each other at gigs in La a couple of times, and so when he got that Gig and they were looking for a drummer, he called me up. So you know, I auditioned for that and ended up getting it. And Yeah, that was the first you know, actual touring, you know, big venue kind of kind of Gig I'd ever done. Had you heard of her before you got the GIG? It's kind of like this, the same the way it is now regarding Nina. If you know about her in the US, it's because you have a specific, you know, like taste for that kind of music. So I she was in my mind and I may have heard like one or two songs in my lifetime, but I didn't really. I wasn't that familiar with her until I googled her and started listening to her cantalog and started figuring out who she was, because she's she's not just a musician, she's like she's an icon, just like the first young woman rock star out of the East eastern Germany, right and some man she's from right. Yeah, yeah, so I think before the Wall came down, her family were artists and musicians in the east and she ended up kind of immigrating to the West. But you know, as some she was a fat she was a fashion icon, like and I kind of Andy Warhole days. And you know, it wasn't an actress as well. She's done some acting as well. Her mom might be who you're thinking of. Her Mom. I think Udhahagan, is a famous actress who I think even as a teacher and acting teacher. But Nina's the daughter of Uddha and then a German and east German like folk musician, activist. God You then in her like sixteen or seventeen, like she was super young, she got hooked up with this sort of kind of was almost like a fusion band and made their they made their first record, white punks on dope. Do you remember that Song? No, I punk sound dope. It's actually not her song. If for you, who was? But anyway, I sort of like kind of comet semi complex grooves with kind of she's operatically trained. So she was doing some like kind of weird operatic stuff. So, yeah, I hadn't really heard of her, but when I googleder, I realized that what a great one, an amazing catalog she had. And then when I got to Europe, honestly, we were like we got to Europe and we did not know what we were in for because she was so freaking popular in Germany. It's like, you know, being swamped and like we're, you know, playing for you. It's not that big, but playing two thousand sold out, two thousand seat venues...

...and just having like the walls shaking and people screaming and everybody knows the words all the songs and most of them are in German, and so we don't even know what the songs me, let alone the words to them, to a lot of them. So she's super popular in Germany, France and South America. So those are the ASPRI spent most of my time touring with her. Very cool. Yeah, and she's after watching a bit of her on Youtube, she's it's almost like performance art, you know, it's see's, it's very in the I don't know, the music is super ECLECTIC. Like when I the I only reason I ever knew her name is because you, like, I'm yeah, hugging and I was like, oh, she's a punk girl from Europe, and I'm like okay, but then when I finally listen to it, I'm like sometimes she's sort of Punk Rock and other times it's it's, you know, RMB a. sure, like I don't even know how to explain. There's like loops and like there's more poppy stuff, I guess, is what I'm saying. It's well EPLECTIC. Yeah. Well, you know, punk rock when it came out, like for US listening to never mind the bollocks or any of those like early punk rock albums, the pretty tame and retrospect that like at the time, Funk Rock, you know, was considered to be pretty aggressive and pretty anti establishment. So I think that's the kind of punk rocks she came out of. But of course she as she matured as a musician, she did move into other styles and you know, she in the s and s she was doing a lot of like kind of well produced rock with like Keith for ZY and some of those producers from that era. Yeah, and I guess it's it just struck me as more musical than the clash or something. I don't know, there's a it's a little more deeper harmony and harmonically and like there's a lot of cool stuff going on. But she's definitely worth checking out if you're you know, like especially from the video point of view, because she has a performing art, performance artist. She's done some incredible videos over there over the years and for me, as a musician, not really being that familiar with her, with her work, I quickly realize that, you know, she has that thing that really, really good musicians have where if she's like picks up a guitar and starts, you know, playing simple chord progression, I would get riveted and other people would get riveted kind of. I think Bob Dylan, of course, has that as well, where you just like right, you know, maybe not traditionally a good vocal vocalist or whatever, but it but when he does what he does, it's men mesmerizing and Nina definitely has that. And this was your first big GIG. Was it everything that you dreamed of it being? Do you have a tack and stuff and like yeah, yeah, I never touched my drums for a few years there. Yeah, I had it. Started exploring electronics, so I kind of invented the ROLLAND SPD x on my own where I had like an octopad sampling, you know, an active pad, trigger pad, and then I had a sampler and so I would trigger background vocals and loops and stuff, and so you'll see, if you ever see video use, I mean playing with the I'm wearing headphunds because a lot of times I'm, you know, I'm triggering loops that they don't get. It's not like protewels playing through the whole song. It's like I'm triggering a loop for the chorus or I'm triggering a loop for the verse, or I'm triggling background vocals or or effects. So you weren't playing to a click? No, no, I mean no, there was never a click, but often, well, not often, but part of the time I was playing along with a loop. Oh, got you. Yeah, because when you're triggering backup vocals and stuff, but there isn't a click, being at the right tempos pretty important thing. Yeah, for those I I had a loop, so you can set up you can set up trigger pad so that you can trigger a loop and then when you trigger the next loop, it shuts off the previous one, right, and so I just got really good at not fucking that up. And so what does she have? Like all American band? Did she live in La at that point or yeah, yeah, yeah, that's why she was putting together her band. She had a house in the Hollywood hills. And so when we would do you know, we would do tours in the US and it would be like house of Blues Tours or, you know, not Viper Room, a key club, you know, then use about that size. We could do that and just do airplane tours, kind of like you, where we just fly into a major city and and could do the you know, one or two shows. They're guy and she would do the shows in English and the crew would be Americans. We go to Europe and she do the shows were, you know, mostly German and a mix of German in English and the cruise were all we're all German. Have you played Germany much? Not really know.

I've did a you know, I was in Denver. Actually I did a dod tour of Germany. We're in West Germany for like three weeks going to military bases, but I've been. I used to kind of joke with Keko because we did Russia and Eastern Europe and I would like where do we got to go to the real Europe. But so, no, I haven't done as much in western Europe at all. Really. Yeah, the the just I was thinking about German crus I still meant touch with a lot of those guys because very very laidback people, but incredibly good at their jobs and very, very precise. Yeah, about getting things exactly right. And again, it's like that level of professionalism that, you know, I really admire. But sometimes, you know, we'd walk into a venue and they would make the house switch out the sound system because it wasn't what was on the writer. You know, it's Lee okay, move all this out and get what we wanted. Yeah, yeah, imagine the middle of Siberia, whereas like you can bitch all you want, we don't have there's not what you want. In fact, when we go to Ukraine, kko still use the KX at eight and there was like one k x Aty eight and all of Ukraine and we pick it up when we get there, go do our touring and drop it off before we leave. Yeah, so she didn't bring her her controller, which she what else was she using besides that? Um, she I think she her sort of signature piano. Sounds an m one piano. So we eventually found an m one module, or I think we'd even eventually before I left, they had come up with some software that that had it. So she was bringing a laptop at that point. But you know, in the states or in Japan, like cants eighty eight is pretty regular. It's a pretty easy thing to back line, you know. So it was only and she's super I mean speaking of being precise, like working with Japanese people, same thing, you know, the text over there just insane. And Yeah, everything right, everything down and measure everything and everything's exactly how you left it when you let you know. Yeah, but she used to that. She also is like if her seat, if they're they're backling a seat, that's the wrong seat. She would carry her seat for a while actually, because if it's just like I'm centimeter off, she knows it and she doesn't. You know, they've got to adjust things. You know, it was pretty tricky, but man, some of the Basse amps that I would end up playing on just I've never even heard of this, you know, like her, like honey, a whole line of fender base amps that I that they didn't have in the states that were like or like Marshall Base amps, you know, and like just so easy stuff that somebody has laying around in the back of a weird theater the middle of nowhere. It sounds like a real adventurous sounds like fun, like fun, like really fun. But I would imagine that could get a little frustrating if you're not able to, you know, perform at the level that you want to perform at in those yeah, gotta go with it, you know. Yeah, for sure. It's more just that the touring is hard. You know, overnight trains or like buses with no heat in the middle of winter and Russia, like it was really, really hard. It was fun the first maybe two times. I win it went and did it because I first time I was in Red Square. I'm just like, I can't even believe I'm here. This is incredible. You know our at the Cremein or whatever. But I don't know, I think I did thirteen tours over there and wow, by the end I was ready to kill myself pretty much. You know, it was, it was is rough. It's probably a wide drank so much on those tours as well. Yeah, just too yeah, you know, it's really, really hard touring. We used to fly back and forth from La to, you know, say Paris, for a few shows or whatever. So we do a lot of back and forth and I just remember that actual...

...the plane trip started to kind of get to me, like I think I could still sort of feel it in my shoulders, you know, like that jet lag thing and it you know, and tell my girlfriend now, I'm she's like what's gonna here? A pretty very I don't know, man, but I could just like teleport there and be there and and I don't know, it's I feel bad about it, but I'm exactly the same way. Like the idea of a ten hour flight, no, thank you, especially like if you're flying Arrow flot and coach. I've had a middle seat to Moscow, you know, Oh, like in your next old lady and like, weirdly the old ladies are the worst at Hal and they they just spread their stuff out and you're I'm a nice guy, you know. I don't want to be dishful, but it's like Ah, yeah, I know, my bad, over grandma. That's what you getting here. Say it after you shove over grandma. I remember being on are Turkey. Yeah, I don't think that's Urky. Actually has a has a an airline. I'm not sure what I was at, what played actually, but it's said are Turkey on the side of it. I'm like, it was, it was, it was, it was a like, it was the unlike any airline and ever been on. Every every seat smelled like parts, every single see. It was like me and five other people on this entire gentl liner. And then when I took like I was thinking of marrying the person I had been with for seven years, but I had never really spent a full year at home with her. So, like you know, in the Keiko thing was sort of it took me a good two years just to get enough intown work to transition out of that and, you know, twelve years with her and it was great, but I was I was tired of Eastern Europe, I guess. You know, just you know, I played those songs enough. So for a whole year I didn't fly at all. Just so great, like Oh my back worked again and and physically I just felt better. And so anyways, yeah, a million stories. We can we cannot, drink and talk about them another time, or or maybe maybe one or two. I don't want to be a bad influence. Yeah, right, Star. I have to confess something. I love books, but I don't love reading and it's been something that I've wrestled with since I was a kid. You know, I can read, I have read books, but they're very time consuming and I've spent most of my time trying to build a music career it which takes a lot of time. But one thing I definitely do a lot of is drive in La traffic on my way to a Gig, and there's a solution that combines those two situations and that's called Audiblecom attaw has thousands of audio book titles and you can listen offline, anywhere, anytime. The APP is free and can be installed on all smartphones and tablets and they have just a ton of music related titles, like all you need to know about the music business by Donald has passman, how music works by David Byrne, or music production secrets by Calvin Carter. And you can get a free thirty day trial right now if you visit audible trialcom dive, Bar Rock Star. That's audible trialcom dive, Bar Rock Star. I'd like to take a second to thank you for listening to the dive Bar Rockstar podcast asked as a new podcast, getting the word out as a vital part of what it takes to keep the show on the road, or off the road, as the current case. Maybe if you would like to support the podcast, all you got to do is subscribe wherever you listen and if you have an extra minute or two, please leave a review. You can also share and follow the podcast on your social media APPS. Okay, enough begging. I hope you're having fun and once again, thank you for listening. So all right, so Nina Hagan, Nina Hug is that? That leads to ghetto blaster, which was a band that was signed to Electra. Yeah, it was a a managements crossover between the Nina hagging band and the woman who found Ghetto blaster and smalltown Missouri, she found these guys, you know, and you know, really good band. Let some of those small towns, because there's not much to do. You, I've realized, you can find some of the like most music conscious, fashion conscious, like kids ever, who like know everything about the newest bands, and that's what Ghetti blaster essentially came from. There was it was in la it was this guy, Theo Mondel, who was with Beck for a long time. He ended up joining the band through the management and then the management also found me and kind of put us together with these Missouri Boys and then then, based on that combination of people, shop the...

...band like crazy and eventually signed to the band, to Electra. I remember signing the contract outside the Viper Room on a on a newspaper machine, like yeah, this is the rock and roll lifestyle. We had just played some showcase of the Viper Room and, you know, the lawyer showed up. I was like all right, let's go boys. Wow. So did you feel a shift going from sideman to like band member? was that a different sort of consciousness? I don't know, you know, I think that I always even kept myself in my mind. I think I was still I was still side man even though I was a full band member, because it was the lead singers band. I mean he use like wrote the songs and he had the look, you know, like Bowie has the two different colored eyes. Y had that going on, you know, like really just super gorgeous dude. Like you knew if I was standing next to him it was pretty clear who's banded actually was. But yeah, so I did sign. So I was a band member but I didn't have any publishing and I I didn't really have much financial power in the band. And so so you record a record. It was great Eric Valentine producing, yeah, and Jacque Jury King, who is probably probably one of the most sought after recording engineers of these last ten ten years or so. God's of course I had no idea that I was working with such great people because I was an idiot. But back I'm like, Oh man, that was Jacque ure king and that was Eric at the time. Yeah, so there are a lot of great people involved in big money, you know, because record labels were the thing then and record we recorded at Eric's studio called Barefoot Studios, and it's in most please action what street is on. But but it was Stevie wonders former studio. Got You. It's where Sir Duke was recorded there and you know, like all those classics TV wonder tunes that you know, the ones that he played drums on, like everything on innervisions I think he played drums on and maybe not songs of the key life, but fulfilling his first front finale. Yeah, so as far as drumming in that room, I'm like Stevie wonder played some of the greatest crews I've ever heard in my life in this room. So cool. Did you guys tours? Did the record is you were saying? And the record never came out. Record never got released, but we were doing like industry showcases. So we were in New York a lot and you know, like I said, just like all the you know, famous rock venues in the La area, because it were really like a rolling stones ish kind of look to the band. It was one of those bands that was styled by the record company but then had like a beck vibe to it regarding like the actual songwriting. So they would put us in, you know, like I said, the Viper Room, the other rock venues on the on sunset strip, like pretty much all those places. We would do showcases and then for a while we were there's a building in New York City called the the music building, and it's just like, you know, Rehearsal Studios, recording studios, music stores, and it's all just like one big and so at some point the record company built us out an apartment with a rehearsal studio in the music building. Wow, just throw money, throw money at the band. Yeah, and so lived there for a while but you know, and then again just anywhere there that they could get us in front of industry people. They they would have as play, but never no real touring got you. And so at some point your life takes a crazy turn that some people would think is a crazy turn and you you get into Buddhism. Yeah, Nord of around the end of that band or is, how do we get to being a monk? That's it. It's a yeah, fascinating story, I'm sure. Yeah, it really it really was. I'm thinking, I don't know if there's anybody else it's actually made that same transition, but I think a lot of people go through the same mental process that that I went through. But even when I so let's go back a little bit and say even when I knew you back in Colorado, when we were young and I was playing in your band, I had an interest in meditation and I was meditating a lot and reading about it. So I was just one of those kids that, you know, read said Artha Bunch of times and you know, like was really interested in, you know, the understanding of the mind and how you can use meditation to train your mind. HMM,...

...so anyway, I as I was getting more and more work and touring more and more, I was feeling a lack of balance and, you know, like I said, I was drinking a lot and doing lots of drugs and, you know, I started getting deeper into like studying Buddhism and thinking about it and to try to find some equilibrium in there. And so when we were in New York, where I you know I was talking about, I had, you know, we were living, there was a lot of time off. We were living in downtown, so I just googled, you know, meditation classes near me or something like that. Ended up at a at a Buddhist Center nearby and I realized that they offered not just beginning classes but like intermediate and college level courses, and I thought, well, that's of that I really would like to know more about, because of the practicality of Buddhist Studies. It's really just it's an understanding of your mind and, like I said, train your mind and and being able to function in the world and a more peaceful way, I would say, or more yeah, in a calmer way, and that's something that attracted to me about it. So I started going to classes and then when, when ghetto blaster, when the New York think kind of petered out, we ended up back in La and I found that there was the same Buddhist centers were they're offering the same classes. So I started tending more regularly. And then when ghetto blaster got dropped, you know, to put it in the context of the kid that I was then, you know, at least it feels like I was a kid then, I had come like that close, tiny said bout as close as you could possibly get to being a rock star, you know, and all those dreams that you have when you're a little kid and you've never played a gig before and you just started playing drums, all that stuff. It had just I've gotten just right there, and didn't it all just got taken away by the decision of one record company. Exact right that was. That was devastating for me at the time. And to answer your question a little more clearly, I'd say yes, the experience of, you know, going through the machinery of the of the music industry at that time left me in a place where I felt like I needed to to think about the world in a more spiritual way, to try to you know, when your sense of worth is all only tied up in your musician ship and external success, they have it all taken away. Yeah, either, honestly, either I was gonna I was going to drink myself to death or, you know, shoot heroin and and say goodbye, or I was going to find some freaking way to dig myself out of that. You know, I know it sounds dramatic, but that's that's exactly what happened. You know. I mean, Dad doesn't? That sounds perfectly normal really. I mean that's the that's the thing about La and the experiences that we have that I don't think a lot of normal people understand that it it kind of message you up when you've flown to Paris on a regular basis, it's hard to go back, you know, it's hard to it's hard to go then and live a normal life, you know. Yeah, when you see some of the stuff that there's a fascinating five minute little, I think you call it a monumentary on your website. You mean my rocky a monumentary, my Machia monkeumentary? Yeah, and that in that documentary it's true that it was really just a me looking back at what it brought me to the spiritual life, to the point of where I decided to devote my life solely to spiritual development and helping others. And in that little documentary, filmmaker Elizabeth Jenkins does a really good job of portraying my life as it was and then my life the way, the way it became as a monk. And then I think I was able to speak clearly about the reasons why, you know, I did make that transition and it's really straightforward and in that in my mind and that I was offered to have all of my dreams essentially come true. And then even before the ghetto bluster thing, when I was touring with Nina, you know, that lifestyle was what I had always dreamed of. Ran I really have this like this experience of being dropped off, like getting off the plane in lax and looking around and going, Oh shit, I am still the little kid from, you know, feeling like a little kid from Denver, you know, and there's no meat, there's no substance to to my experience outside of the time that I'm actually there, like I and you know, and I've spent a lot of that time, you know, drinking and maybe not connected to my life as much...

...as I would like to have been. So that experience it definitely like as much as I love it, and you know, I'm still a musician and, you know, interested in touring and recording again, but back then I didn't have the emotional strength to understand that I need to feel good about myself it having other people tell me that I'm good and be a stable person. And that's not the hardest part is about this industry. Period. It's like the vulnerable, the constant vulnerability, you know. And then you get blown up like you're the greatest person in the world, just like you said, and then you get dropped off at Lx and you got to go home and and you're just you again, in the sort of constant roll or coaster of the ups and downs a bit. It takes a toll, you know, I totally get it. It's so tricky because, like do you think? At the same time it's that without that drive to want to do that and just putting every ounce of your soul in there, you would have never gotten to those places. And I know exactly what you're talking about it, name time. It's the very thing that's going to screw you up, possibly for the rest of your life, or something that you're going to have to deal with, you know, your life. This is I think it's really important. The thing that you're talking about is really important because I still have that drive in me now. It says, you know, for some reason I need I need to be respected and thought of as a kid musician and thought of as a you know. I have to have that and if I didn't have that, I probably would have stayed in Denver and played reggae in Blues Gigs for the rest of my life. But, like you said, I think you nailed it, is that that's the very thing that makes you vulnerable, because somebody in the band or the leader of the band's can in like get pissed at you or something and then all of that like Shit that you've been looking for, like that justification for your existence and you know that, that assurance that you're that you're a good musician. It just it's so subjective that it's it's it's really hard and I think it's why so many, you know, famous people publicly just spin out into the like some level of madness. Yeah, so what was it that tipped you into, like I'm gonna go full on monk, depression and anxiety and drug addiction and just being like, you know, as I got deeper into Buddhism, I saw it as a way to be useful in the world. I had actually always had thought that monks were cool, even when I did and I met some, you know, ordained people in various traditions, and I really so you can actually still be kind of a normal person and take on this like persona of like this is what I do with my life, which is look within and try to benefit other people, try to improve yourself as a person, and it felt like the right thing to do. I think the other thing about this path for me to is like it's as like I just had a baby and I was excited for that, because the other thing that I think that's required if you're going to be successful on on a big level in the music industry is that, or acting or whatever. It's like the focus is on you all the time. It's on yeah, how am I going to get better? How am I going to get this career going? How am I going to do this? I need to get a better gig. Me, me, me, and it's just like survival to a certain degree. It's not like your egos crazy out of control. It's just like how you going to survive? You know, it's hard and it's all me, me, me, me, me, all the time, and it's like I've exhausted of that. You know, I was looking forward to having a child to me, like, it's not about me anymore, it's about us, because I think at the end of the day it's not fulfilling, unless you're a narcissist, which I don't think we really are. You know. No, I mean maybe a little where than that would have been. You would have gotten on the road and been like this want to do the rest of my life. I'm sad. Yeah, you know, but it's not that satisfying. You get out there and you're like this is great, it's everything I wanted. I'm having fun, but how much does it mean anything really? You know, you're just playing gigs. You're just playing gigs to Twentyzero people's instead of a bar. You know what I mean. It's it's great, but it's also is it enough? You know, is it the end? I'll be all yeah, and that's really it's it. That's that's a spiritual question. It really is. It's like what makes your life meaningful, and the fact of the matter is it's the same for everybody, whether you're, you know, Christian or Muslim or whatever. These fundamental questions up being the same. And if you're a self focused narcissist who's only thinking about themselves and is taking advantage of other people and kind of screwing over other people, you're not...

...happy right. Yeah, you can, even though you may be rich or whatever and it, you know, may present his power or something like that. Ultimately, like what what we what everybody wants at the end of the day, is to feel like they're loved right and to feel like their life is meaningful. And narciss you know the kind of narcissistic people that we kind of see appearing around of late, and it just really selfish, selfish, selfish, selfish people in their hearts. You know that you can't be that person and have that kind of connected, meaningful relationship with other people that actually makes your life feel like it's got some substance and and and love. You know, that General Term Love that's on greeting cards. It is so important because it's it's a sense of peace in a sense of home and it's sense of of calm that you don't get anywhere else. And I've never had a child, but you know, just talking to people who have had them, I think it's an unimaginable amount of like I would do anything for this other person what I fell or you know, I don't even know. It has to be that deep. The reality is is that I've got to do everything for this kid. You know, I've pretty men. Yeah, because it's weird, as I'm I don't know. It's weird in the beginning from right now because he's doesn't talk, he doesn't really have personalities. Is Blob that like, you know, shits a lot and and you know. But I mean he's amazing and it's incredible, but it until he really can get to know that. I don't I think that connection is a gradual thing, you know. Yeah, I'm sure it's different on some lovel for everybody. So yeah, like I said, no freaking idea. So yeah, right, please continue. Yes, I agree, I think it is different. Aim It for me, but but it's but there's just no question that, like, I'm looking forward to every second of this kid's life, you know, and I'm looking forward to like whatever I can do to make this kid a great person and to make this thing, you know, which feels so much more important than play in a great Bass Solo. You know, I don't think, if ever, you know, just to have that something that's bigger than me, you know. Anyway, yeah, I agree. That's just like an aspect of it. And again, you can be a great bass player, touring, you know, the world and playing, you know, great shows and still have a happy, meaningful life. I didn't. I don't that right, but for me I did have the balance of being able to like support myself emotionally and do all that stuff. I put all of my eggs in the basket of being being a performer and that balance wasn't there for me. So, being who I am, I just like through, you know, through all the weights, out the wolverboard from the balloon. Hey, there's an analogy, and just like went completely the other direction. Right, right, and event eventually that balance, that came out of balance as well. And Right. So that would be my next question. So what brought you back to play in the drums and to play in music? First of all, how long were you like officially, you know, wearing the garb and being a monk, you will. I had been studying for more than ten years and I'm still, you know, a daily meditator and do retreat the stuff. But by the time we were dained, I had been studying for for many years and then I was officially ordained for about five years. And during that time I was asked to start teaching, and on the East Coast. So I was doing some teaching in La they asked me, like the tradition, asked me to move to new I ended up in new Bedford, Massachusetts, and then I also taught in Boston and Providence, Rhode Island. So I was the you know, the daily teacher at three different Buddhist centers and, you know, I taught again, entry level courses, college level courses, retreats, workshops at those three different places and, honest see, what happened is that it was too much for one human being. Yeah, I started to just like get so burned out. I mean, I loved it, I loved every minute of it. And again, I spent all that time just really doing something that I felt strongly in my heart would benefit other people and the you know, just teaching them techniques to be able to like deal with difficult relationships or to forgive somebody or, you know, even ways to to to look at addiction that might help them get out of some horrible state of mind they might be in. Giving people tools...

...that I know worked to let go of anger and and hatred. Those is very valuable tools that everybody should have. But I was I was so booked up so much of the time that I started to get sick and started to burn out. So eventually I was just like realized that I was done with that stage of my life and ready to move on. Well again, balance. Yeah, balance, not not my middle name. ha ha ha ha. Wow. So then what happens next? Did you move back to la or actually, know, I came back to Colorado just to have a place to land because I have family here and I didn't really know that I was going to go back into music, though I'd always had that connection. Like I said, I'd like, you know, I'd be in my monkmobile driving from venue to venue and I, you know, I'd turn on the radio and I'd be like, Oh man, I love that song and I feel it like I want to play that Groove, you know, right here. James Brown tune or something, I'd be like, Oh my God, this, you know, subtlety of the ghost notes and that pattern or whatever. My heart would just go like I started looking for a GIG locally and practicing. I started getting my chops back. Yeah, little known secret. Taking time off can actually be good for you. I think I'm actually this was going to sound narcissistic, but I think I'm actually better now that I that I was before. I absolutely think that's true for me. Taking time off as vital, because you just get kind of you know, you just get into the same playing the same things and, yeah, your muscle memory almost becomes too much, you know, and and you start playing from your physical body and not from your head or your heart. You know what I mean? Not For me anyways. I need to take a break and just then when I come back to the base, it's like, Oh, I'm playing things from my brain and not just from my muscle memory. You know what I mean? Yeah, I'm totally looking for it. I know you've been in the Dwight Gig for a while, but I'm really looking forward to seeing you play again, because it's been like fifteen years or somehow, and you got at least a little bit better since, ha ha ha. Yeah, that's well. Funny part about that is, is that really the Dwight Gig? Is singing like I'm singing with him almost on every song and it's like duets all night, basically, and I'm doing all the high stuff and he does all the blow stuff. So the bass playing is it's and traditional country. There's I literally don't play. I don't. I don't play anything that's not on a record, and what's on the record is root five, root five. You know, there were one day. I've shuffle, you know. So I don't know, the best showcase of me as a bass player at this point. You know, I think what I really meant when I was saying that as that it would be fun to play with you again. Yes, you play some groups like I feel like that connection that we had back way back when is probably still there. That, and then we've just both been through so much weird shit that, yeah, you know, you're going to be still cool, but we're both propefully. I'm better than I was then as well. So you you've mentioned you're playing some country now to write. Yeah, yeah, just funny. Like I recently found your podcast and I really hadn't played much country at all, except in college. I used to play a long five nights a week at the Jack dangels bar. Oh Man, that's been rough. Yeah, but again, like, I'm really glad I got I played my drums that many hours a week. You know, that really let it starts set up anyway. I just said, through a friend of a friend, like every gig I've ever gotten a guy named Austin Waller who's got some connections. Like all these records are recorded and produced in Nashville, but I was asked if I want to do that Gig. So I'm starting to do the Rodeo circuiting here in Colorado for a little while, literally rodeos. Yeah. Well, my first GIG was dwight. was literally my first Rodeo. Yeah, I've never been. What I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, it's interesting path, you know, having gone starting from chops and Berkeley and college and and just now I'm on a gig where there's it's not about chops, you know, it's about song and great songs and in Melody and writing and good lyrics and it's, you know, speaking of fulfilling you know, I think it's the most fulfilling Gig in terms of music that I've I've had. You know, Oh really, that's an interesting to hear. We have a lot of comment in common. I think we always just got along its friends. Yeah, so there's that connection. But then I I from listening to these podcast I kind of clear that you like you know, you made your way into these sub gigs and he's really great. Like you said, that wedding band. I heard you talking about...

...that recently and the written our and you know, the kind of a different path that I think is suited to you as a as a more accomplished, like trained musician, where as I end up up in it's crazy ass punk bands and like afrobeat bands and you know, like trying to get a record contract and all that kind of stuff. Two different paths actually. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean I came out and tried to stay very focused in like even within like studio or or live. I'm like, I don't want to be in a cave. I'm you know, I love making records, but it's I really want to get on the road and I love traveling and all that stuff. So I just I want to be that guy and I'm not going to waste time trying to be in a band. You know, it's like I just want to be that guy. Plus, like I said, the fringe. It burned me out from any kind of band leader situation. I just want to go, want to pay, get paid good money to play my bass and then go home, you know. So, you know, it eventually all worked out, but it's you know, it's twenty years of stories that that took. Yeah, here, you know what I mean. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of those in between times. Like you, you and I both can talk about like the high points of all of this stuff we've done, but then there's those like weeks where I did almost nothing and just righte every night and you know, like tried to figure out how I was going to pay their in or whatever, and you know, like but the high points to the high points, I'm really I feel super fortunate to have been able to do the things I've done and had the opportunities I've had, and not just in music but in you know, to be a Buddhist teacher. And Yeah, you know, kind of get back to all of that and you know, I'm kind of reapproaching the whole music aspect of my life, with a more balanced mind and, you know, feeling more confident in general about everything. Lass a great well, judge it from your website, it looks like you're getting to a place that's pretty balanced because you're doing some production, you know, and writing songs and doing all this the studio stuff and playing games, but you're also, I guess, Like Life Coaching you'd call it, or just yeah, it's kind of like life coaching. And scotten you know that the idea of life coaching is sort been formalized as their specific training you can get. But like what I'm doing it honestly, I was looking for a way to combine all the Buddhist training I've had and the teaching with kind of the understandings that I got from just being a musician, like practicing a lot and, you know, the balanced life sort of issues that you and I have been talking about, bringing that together in a in a you know, sort of a service that I can offer people who might be navigating difficult times in their lives as creative people of any kind of like coders, painters, whatever, with really with really specific purposeful things that can be done, you know, Meditation Wise, and just, you know, how to approach different difficulties. You know, like you and I both have said in this interview that we were both punks, you know, and for me when I was on give us because my you know, I had ego. I just wasn't sure of myself and, you know, almost like small man syndrome, where, you know, it just really navigating those things and helping bring my my understanding, my my Buddhist teachings into a place where I can at least try to help other people navigate the same things that I've gone through. Yeah, so that becomes my it's like it's called. The training is called Positive Psychology coaching or mentoring or counseling, and so I do offer the that for creative people, along with private lessons. Those have all been online lately. Well, dude, this has been so awesome. I really appreciate you taking the time and being part of this because I think it's a great story and you know, I'll put a link to all your stuff in the in the show notes and stuff too. Yeah, just Jeffreyman'scom's got all my all my stuff in one place. But you know, ultimately it's just been really good to see you absolutely, I know. I just try to think. It's probably at least been fifteen years since we've set each other and next time I'm in Denver or next time you're la come by, let's let's jam, let's do play together, let's make her make a reason, you know, or I'll come by bring a bat. Agree. Yeah, like my plan is to get back to La and the next six months or so. Well, I mean I'm definitely going there to do a few things businesswise, but I'd like to actually live in the area again. But it'd be good to meet your kid. I'm assuming he's named Jeffrey, ha ha, I haven't I have an uncle jeff that would have loved that too. But there his name is Lennon. Oh Nice. So after the Marxist Russian rule, exactly, you know, right, but it's socialist. Keep it is socialist. Well, that was more of a...

...kind of a half catchup, half interview, so I hope you enjoyed that. I did, but it was interesting looking back and I guess I didn't realize at the time how much we had in common as far as just I think what we had in common was just that we're so driven to be great musicians and the musicianship just we can't let it go. We just want to be better all the time and it's driven both of us to, you know, move to crazy places like Los Angeles, California, where it's you know, it's a harder place to live than Denver. Don Denver's really nice, comfortable place, but you know, we both have this crazy drive in us. That's that's that's hard to let go of. I guess I didn't realize it at the time, but looking back it seems pretty obvious. But that's always the challenge, to find the balance between, you know, not feeling challenged as a musician and maintaining some kind of quality of life. You know that that's that's comfortable, and they don't always go together, that's for sure. I've often described being a musician as a blessing, anakers, because it's great that I have this drive to do something and I have something that I love and I've been very fortunate and worked really hard to make my living at it. But at the same time there's not really any chance of getting off this train. You know, it's just I have to be a musician. It's just one of those things that's in you and if you're out there deciding whether to make a go at it, I think that's a good test. But it wasn't a decision for me. I had to do this. I think I might have said that another podcast, but this just brings it all out, you know, all over again. He mentioned reggae on the rocks, which is a big reggae festival at red rocks amphitheater each year in Morrison, Colorado, and I mentioned the Dod Tours, which it stands for a Department of Defense. So it's basically like cover bands. We get these tours and tour military bases all over the world. So it was a great way to see Europe, you know, and get paid for it. I went to Europe in ninety two with a band from Denver called Chucky in the cyclones. Shout out to them. Eric Valentine also produced smash mouth and we mentioned him on the Greg Camp Episode. Sa Dartha is a one thousand nine hundred and twenty two novel by Herman Hess that deals with the spiritual journey of selfdiscovery of a man named Sidartha during the time of the Gautam Buddha. TV glot. Sir is the song by Nina Hoggin band, which was a cover of white punks on dope by the tubes. Her version had different lyrics and they were in German. By the way, if you have any questions that I fail to address in this ending segment or comments about anything, please feel free to reach out. You reach out on facebook or Fan Mail at dive Bar rockstarcom, because I would absolutely love to hear from you. So I hope you enjoyed this show and we'll talk to you on the next one. Star. Wow, you've made it to the end. I'm hoping it's because you completely enjoyed yourself and are now filled with knowledge and inspiration to move forward with your dreams. If that is the case and you would like to stay informed of new episodes, live events in general news, please go to dive Bar rockstarcom and sign up for the mailing list. If you have any questions, comments, corrections or complaints about anything you here on the show, please email me at fan mail at dive Bar Rockstarcom and you may even end up on the show. We at the dive Bar Rockstar podcast with all of our hearts. Thank you for listening and remember, it's all about dreams,.

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