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The Dive Bar Rock Star Podcast
The Dive Bar Rock Star Podcast

Episode 7 · 1 year ago

Jackiem Joyner- Will Smith in Russia (The Sax Pack, Keiko Matsui)

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Saxophonist Jackiem Joyner talks about his career as a sideman playing with Keiko Matsui and others while building his brand and eventually becoming a #1 charting artist. He talks about the challenges of producing his own records and reveals how he gets his signature sax sound. Jackiem talks about his favorite plugins and mixing styles. He also discusses his other talent: novelist. Check out his new album “Touch”.

Touch

https://open.spotify.com/album/6l3WC746tLslsTMqPu6DYb?si=irMhVIH8SYm_aLioGqYI_w

http://jackiemjoyner.com

Do you love audiobooks? You can get athree thirty day trial, membership to audible, dotcom by visiting audivltrial, dotcom's last dive bar rocks star. They have thousands of audio Boovtitles as well as podcast, guided wellness programs, theatricalperformances, Aliss, comedy and exclusive audible originals. You won'tfind anywhere else get your free trial membership at audible, trial, dotcom,flash DIVAR, Rockstar, welcome to the Divar rock star, podcast,a show exploring the lives of professional musicians of all typestouring, musicians, recording artists, songwriders engineers, barbands weddingbands and anyone making their living in the music industry, whether you'vedreamed of being a professional or you already are one. This is the Pod Gastfor you, I'm your host Eric Banes, and I hope that you no only find someentertainment here, but also some helpful tips, trade secrets and ideasthat will help you achieve your dreams. todayis going to be a really smooth day.It's going to be all about smooth jazz for those of you, don't that don't know.I started my career in smooth jazz playing with Kecomotzui Nelson Rand,Joe Le Written our great crucas, all kindsof people. I've bend about sixteen seventeen years playing smooth jazzcontemporary jazz until I moved on to other things and that's a whole coin tobe a whole other episode, how I got from smooth jazz to country music, butU I did so. My guess today is an awesome,smooth Jazzzaxophonis I played with him on Ccomot Sui he's played with RonnieLaws Bobby Lyl. He was a member of the sack pack for a while with Jeff Kashuaand Steve Col before becoming a top charting solar artist. He has twonumber one hit: songs, five top ten billboard singles and a number onedebut album. He was dub debt artist of the year, two thousand eight by smoothJazz News, and he was given the keys to the city of Syracuse New York and had aday dedicated to him. He has jacking joiner day. It's crazy, he's R. He released this seventh albumtouch last year and he's one of the hardest working and smartest people. Iknow so. Please enjoy my conversation with jackem joiner. I notice your last records on your OleLabel, the Joneur media company, Nay, that's it and that's a that's D at Putout touch. That was my. You know it's like a romantic yeah. I listend to ityesterday. Oh all the way through MHE like it yeah it's very kind of oldschool. I git's got a littleol school bibe to it. You know the itle schoolRMB. You know I ned a lot of the production, mostly on it. You knowactually, on on the UM title, cut touch on plan. Everythinglike the drums programming, the live, drum programming, the base triliin that I'm using onlything about Lan is Um Guitar, with a cowbolden who plays with the Jacks. OhYeah he's playing guitar that that's cool, so tha, that's kind of a funrecord. You know it was my most mellow record yeah, youknow thats what struck me at. It's Al really relaxed and even like, when Iwas recording it I was you know I was playing extremely softly, likeliterally it was very low vhim coming from the sacks and and Um just to makesure I wasn't playing too loudly actually had my head mos kind of beefedup with the saxophone, so so I could feel it, and so I could say: okay, youknow, hey break it back a little bit yeah. So that was a whole. That's KINDOF how I sing Ois a studiomost of the time, I'm like a real right up on the Mike Mhm. Don't sin too loudkind of o o get to the course an do whatever I do, but I I like thatreally closed up to the Mikeindo, intimate sound. You know yeah. I wasreal, careful wit like the way I used the compression on hi taxophone too,because I didn't want it. I wanted the Sacx to have you know some dynamics,yeah 'cause, some of the other songs or some. You know other records a lot ofthe you know it's a lot of impact outtold playing. So there's a lot ofcompression and stuff like, but this one is more just like leveling. Youknow withlittle bit of compression. Well, it sounds great hought that wasreally awesome. Yeah, you know it's it's. It was fun. You know I mean youknow every record. You learned something new yeah you know Yoyou oncould have done this were. I should have done that Orand, you produced allyour records, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah...

...yeah. I mean Gosh I's amazing. When youlook back and you listn like holy crap, I really could have fixed that yeah and Theno my ci, an hear t at it'son. You maynot be oin to blame when you listen back you're like Oh man, Icouldn't hear that I an Wan to tell me Danything, have youever wished that youcould work with a outside producer or well. You know actually Um. I have acouple of secret producers that you know that are really good, that I'vebeen working with on on some onsome stuff ts cool, oh, like ad Blev in abox or something you got Aou when you're ready to work yeah, you know e. You know a couple ofpeople in in in a cut but um. I I'm actually going to be writing somestuff with a some some. You know some reputable people to you know some somesongs that ran together, parle me and probb around and working on a o cool.We also we ave to dit ta song together Um on my second album toosowhen. The timeis right hen we have a you know to rickbrawn toyou, know wevery cur on something yeah 'cause I'. I do the same thing.I'm produce all my own stuff, but I do have a fantasy of one day being able toafford like if I didn't have to do the engineering and all then make all thedecisions, and I could just be the artist like how con Eve, Thatry Ra.It's amazing tha, you know like what, if you just all you had to do, is focuson with your sound yeah as your Ain, like o Youre, getting that melodyiyeahexactly exactly. You know it's! It's crazy, like W E in a studitts likethere's, so many like litle nuances, that M, when you're, when you're,playing and you're just like playing and you have the music playing andyou're not recording it. Ookay sounds great, but then when you, when youactually play it on tape, you, like you know this. This this has to be. Lisnohas to be longer. Noit was too loud and you know it's just like Har a littlstuf people just don't know like the time I know, and then you have to putinto all of that stuff. You know yeah an get anw o the next day and you'relike man. It just sounds like Shidm. Last night I was like man. This is thegreatest Song Ever Com, R pression. He morning, Youe likewhat in the world was, I thinking you know so yeah. I know, and it takes youout of that creative space 'cause. It's so technical. You know that's the thingyou know when you're technical, I can tell now, when I, when I'm beingsupertechnical about it, I just get up and walk away from it 'cause. I know that I'm not beingcreative and there are times where you know Y, U Yo, you're not set up torecord e microphone's, not hooked up and that's when, like some magic, glstuff, rigtc right and it's like by the time you you turn on stuff, you set thePRIB, it's all done, yeah yeah! No, I hear you ou know only inthe last probably in the last year since I've had this studio and stuffand been able to just be out here and not worried about being too loud forthe wife or whatever you know now. It's like all this stuff hasbecome another instrument, I've, finally gotten decent enough at all thetechnical stuff, where it's all kind of flowing yeah. But the other thing I do, though,is when I'm writing. I just use my phone, like I record, to my phone,because I don't even want to get N, I don't a do hook up a Mike. I want to doany of that. You know that when I'm writing, I got a keyboard an in a phoneor a guitar in the phone. You know Goo tar see especially learn how to do, butI do use my phone like when I whan. I have a melody, I'm using my phone. Imean yeah, but now you know Gosh. It took long enough for me to figure outhow to record saphone fifteen years o figured out how to doit. You know so now it's it's! You know. I know, I know when it's sounding good.You know before I'm recording and I kn. I know how to set the compressor andall F, that stuff rig know which is really super important with thesaxophone and also like the plugans. You know, like I used to just like justthrow a bunch of stuff on it. Just you know just keep pushing until the sounds.Good K had a plug INS until they finally Siyou know, but really now it'slike it's not. You know a LO s. You got a good level and got a really good.Recording coming in you'd be surprised...

...how littl you have to do to make itsound good. You know so now, Ou like the stuff that I'm doing is mostlysubtractive. Like E Q, most of my ECA, like if you Wene, to sue my et like onmy sacxway, but s no high in as it just dips here and there you knowyes, that'sit t's, no 'cause when you're dipping the low end, O highanes boostupellespecially when you we're using that. U, AH seven 'cause t you oaany higs on Thaea, oh no N Youe,going to give eighty seven gold y, ah an wa prem. I Focus W PRM TAT's, it's kind of whatis a model Ikcaiemer, but it's it's not digital! It's! It's all t's T's, it'sold school, but it has a built in compressor thatI' use only sometimes on the SAXTHERE's there's a pluging called a sooth s, o othe. So basically what it does is um it's. It automatically learns with ahorribleness, horriblenes other sound, and it's just ecewing t out. Oh Got Ya!You know what I'm saying it's just so you can see it. Kinda, like San okay,yeah, no one's going to really be interested in hearing that rn an nob tosee how much how aggressive you want it to be, and it really just like like forsymbols and things like that. It really just like just automatically do that. Ilike to do that before go to the compressor a so it just identifiesfrequencies that those people don't like exactly exactly an takes them out.That' You Choo. It's like a smart Ecyeah, you ow becoming more and more.What I'm doing is just like presets, because some of these plugins are justcoming with stuff already set up and a an ob own o. The preset and e likelet's Do thatrate snare drum y there. It is so much easier now forsure, and you were saying before that you used the wave of stuff and I'vejust recently got into that and a Oh man, wt only is it great, it'sinexpensive, yeah Y, a be really expensive, but now you can get eachplug in there's like a hundred ad hundred and fifty bucks like I, I lovethe sound of the SSL Um Eq, one bas. Yes, oh my gosh, it soundsgreat. The there's a there's, an actual setting for base it'. Just I don't knowwhat it does, but the Eq its just like it just makes it so present yeah and Iuse the SL um on. I use the V com and the SSL, but mostly the SSL compressoron the Sina Home Um. The only thing I do is you know any time is working in abox. I usually like to compress a very little you know so and and emy hadanother one rightand compresse a little bit more yeah, rather than compress alot on one mhm yeah. Well, you know, I I usually put the Mike through this Lasix, ten and I'll put a little compression there. 'cause it's a local,it's analog. Yeah sounds really good, but I don't want to overcompress. So Ican and then I usually end up putting like eleven seventy six like plugging on itwhatever, but yeah I mean it's. It's so important,though iyelike when I travel around the country and someone hands me a damotapeor like their album, mhmi feel like the biggest thing, that's misunderstood ormissing his compression. You know the Guitar Shul Sound, bigger than that then drum should be bigger, like yeah. Your whole thing could be better if youjust knew how to work. Some compression, yeah yeah compression also is an effecttoo. I mean you know. If you know what you're doing you can really make saopsound, really really good. You know yeah and of course I love using a tapesaturation I mean I love the Cran. Mastertata have thato man, I think,sounds just wonderful. You know he's just like you turn it on you turn itoff he's just like. I don't know it just sounds better oyeah yeah I've alsogot the Abbey Road Chambers I haven't. Is that what is that? Who makes that isthat fric way is that Wa to yeah? I haven't checked that one on no for sureyeah. They have a whole Abbey road series. I've seen a lot of the alinzersare like amazing, reverbs and wo gets real stuff. But again the precess Allithought the only thing that ever existed was ultoberb. I didn't know thewas any other pepen Weny n waves, ING, altbrb, een, Pyou, know Ou. I that old school sI just not love the UM. The H play the vocal played on it, itsyeah yeah. It's just you know. Of course you just gotta hole much othersetting. There are other things that of comas o know. I didn't know that I eweron CAE a go sue together Hicelmao for years. How many years were you in thatBA ot long time? 'cause, I think eleven 'cause Ilat I win yeah he's definitelyW. I was twelve. That was like eleven years. No, I started like two thousandand seven okay. That's what I did my first show so yeah for you almost yeah,like eleven beers. I can't believe that I know it goes my faces, but it was. That was where we met and yyeah firstexperience touring together that yeah it was an awesome experience Wen. Youlook back, I I wouldn't Trad. It was a great. It wasa great experience. I learned so much...

...you know and just to places you knowthat we went to. I mean Isar, Byjon and tourn. U Crane, you know you wel say Iwas able to be. Will Smith for like an entire month and Russia. That was great.You know I really aried that Michael Jordan yeah. Well, you sai the first time youmet me and I I vaguely remember, I think we werehearsed first not likeever heard in in the State Er First Gig together technically was Mua on Moscow.Yes, yes, we were hers and I think I only learned, like three songs, 'causeChristian, I said e just going to play like these three songs, when Cko waslike no you're playing eight songs. I was like okay, you know I'm on theplane. What was that song that N Thenon, whatever that's on White Gate, YeahWhite Gate, I'm anwow, you're IOINTO, really out of it yeah I'm going toavoid learning that track, yeah. That was hard and doll, and some of theseweird yeah, but very unique music, very unique people, it's hard to say whatthat is an it's. Probably. Why 'cause? I sort of started my exit out of smoothjazz a few years before leaving her band, because her music is Hsgot as herstraight up, Tsmooth Yazz and then there's like some world stuff and yeaschool fugethins. That white gate was more of the fusion note. After note,after not con Likeyeah, it's not something. L Ke, Oh yeah. I kinda knowit. No! No! You either do you', neither know it or you Ono 'cause, this thingishard ere arranged yeah. It's interesting. You know Keco Um, like hersaxophone parts, are' like repetitive like like on a lot of smooth jazz. Youknow melodies and ND. Verses like it'll, bedifferent, like the second chorus would be like just a slight different on thesaxophone and she she wuld really notice that and really really want it.Even though it's just like four or five notes, it's like superimportant and was that the first time you'd everhad to deal with a Gig like that yeah of course, like you know, honestly, Ithink I kindof needed that, because thet kindof opened me up a little bit.You know to 'cause. Otherwise you know I' probably have been trrapped in his acycle of loopiness. So yeah you know I mean so it wasn't.It wasn't, like my my whole sound as far as like I like Sol, like Fonk, youknow an Ramb R, what I really wanted, an do, n t that wasn't what Keko was,but at the same time it kindo helped open up some things. You know yeah yeah,I mean I was a musical director, so I kinda hired a lot of people and youknow you know through her or whatever she does the actual hiring, but I wouldbring people to her and that was probably the hardest thingto get across to people. It's like when I hand you the CD, I'm not saying likekinal learning, hi stuff or like put your Tik on I'm saying, she's Goingnawant hear that Drumfield sh hear that I exact lik that that was not a moment intime that the guy came up with somethig cool. That's the part exactly andthat's the thing 'cause a lot of people think it's open for Interpretaon othingon taxophone, it's like Oh man, you you're going to be INVD. That wasalways kind of her department. I handled like the drums and guitar andshe's more about the saxophone and yeah yeah y e melotic stuff, but yeah butyeah. I don't Rehem rhythmically, it's you know it. She you know, that'sthat's the thing I mean her rhythm stuff. I mean like a great romancethat'. That's rig excellentrag yeah. I love that record. Moial N, that's myfavorite CACO yeah yea. When I, when I hear her performing some of those tunes,I'm like man, this is Justthi great is grand yeah yeah. So was that Richard Bono? That was thefirst, I think it was Richard Bona yeah yeah. He H Theso Africa. They kind of like wrote, songs together, Yeah Yeahfor the first time in my by the way, if you're listening Richard Bone, I got atrack. I really love you to do yeah. It's got like this African kindof feel to should I call him yeah. We just call hem up now. That's yeah thephone line sal. I don't have that. You know I'm not bad either. You couldcall me. Oh yeah, yeah, that's true! THAT'S TRU! I'm T E as parts eer year Iwas going to say is that previous to that I kind of described the Gig as meplaying whole notes and then the drummers just going off. It was elyRumgig en she starts writing tunes with Richard Bona Hos, a fantastic base,player Unlobil, and now I'm like Oh wow. I got stuff to play now is just taking a whole difference rightnow, h, yeah, what a BAS Sodo this yeah! So did you enjoy the travel? You know Iwould say h. half the time I mean it was. It was definitely itdefinitely put me out of my comfort zone Y majority. At the time I was likewholly crap, I'm not sure how long I...

...can do this. I mean body aches. Youknow an your twenties. Is You know I hear y? What was I twenty seven?Twenty eight when I wa spile with Cakeo yeah man, I was like cheese. This hurts CEA Wat who he hurts. I didn't realize it was this toughchecking in Iwell every tour, even in the state, started with a red eye,because you know there's not a lot of money. I don't know you could talk morethis now that o're an artist you know if you can stay o night in a room, thenyou're saving money, so we would always SDART with a red eye. You show up atnine in the morning morning, get some sleep if your room's ready to checkinto which is only twenty five percent of the Doar Igt, and then you got to goright to the gig of the selcha s at ar or ith no sleep. If you eve seep on aplane, Don'you, don't even bother trying to do the GA eah exactly if youcan't Tis Hono, you can't sleep on a plane, 'cause Ta, that those were Nice,I'm not good with those man just so you know you get there in the morning, I'mlike Yo. I really need to get some sleep and it's like you know. Yourrooms aren't ready. You know that Huran, an long, sound, checking an show, yeah,that's painful yeah, and then we started going to wellwell. You started in Moscow so for you the whole time there, but then youstart thinking about Japan, flights and Yeah estern Europe, South Africa yeah.It's man, those plates there really longer flights. Se e you can get alittle bit, morelax an AE, some sleep, but even when we tore Russia, we wereon train Thotha. Wasaso Gran, you know ver C, except for getting on the train.Ht Getting on the train G, go to the hotel and you know basically being likeminus en degrees or whatever yeah, when you're on a train. For thattime, Iwas Ike, Yeh 'cause. It would be like overnight. It would be over night,we'd have bunks yeah, yeah, yeah yeah t, you know, depend on who you're sharingtye room yeah right t because I was try, would sayread or RR. You know, Imy God stepree of course e. You know, Er cussion is origiallyfrom the rippingtons, but yeah a Cao for a good six years or so and he's afabulous Guyi Ho Hes callenge sometime Ounin theer in the travel department. You know, ath great percussion is yeah.You know I A it a lot tohead I had him do Um Percussion on my second albuw, and itis amazing, is this: is that T it's it's? It's superrandom! It's likecompletely unpredictable Isli. He went and grabbed the sting over there, buthe wasn't like prepared to grab it. So it was like you would have never known.He didn't show anything that was going to say he was going to grant this otherinstrument and do something with it and throw it back. Rigwe I made him BERFECBERTECO stuff e Sh's got this sort of ethereal kind of atmospheric Bibe, youknow, and he that's him yeah, exactly hi thatw's cool you know at was crazy.Like H, the t, the UH time that I wen oe Steve Left to ban- and I was stillplaying with Cako for probably four or five years after that so 'cause asinteresting, getting used to not having him there. He sound without him. There you knowyeah, so it adds a lot of energy, yeah, yeah, yeah Y, a it looks great too. Youknow how did you get the GIG in the first place? Actually H, I was on the smooth jazz cruise andI think Keko was performing there and I think Christian was on there. SoChristian called my manager. Steve Chapman was my manager at the time andthen he said: Hey you want to do this. You know this is k COM on Su. He saidyou know, so I mana call me and say you know they're having a rehearsal on thisdat. I didn't know that we were going to Russia or anything Ou. Now, O youknow how much it pays or whatever you know so and then offer me to money andI as like, but this this doesn't record facialexpressions Taokay. I just made a really happy faith: that's the money Grea but yeah. So then I went and did it andI was excited, you know wo, travel and stuff. It was so weird because wealmost didn't go to Moscow it 'as like if we didn't get to flight- and I waslike Oky where's Ha flight and where's you I was calling my manage. I was likehey, you know we're supposed to be leaving tonight. What was in thatseries, but like the next couple of days- and I think it's a very superlast minute, you know we get the flights to Moscow, I'm like man. Thisis like super last minute. I think CRIO WHO's on my next Greko record on I'mdoing to EP that's coming out this summer, Greco playd guitarn, it soundssounds great, he's Fori. I think it sounds crea. I'm just just it's roughis TATA rough, rough time I'll. Let you check it out, but yeah and I don't think he had afight coming back.

Thatright. That's probably right, butthis is all bad stuff, so it was just really interesting because you I hadn'tknown of you before I think Youhad just moved to l a yeah. I was in La for wellI'Mla, two thousand and four. So I was there for three years. You know so, butI I wasn't really on a scene or or have been by the time I left the bandyou're like number one charting albums, yeahyeah yeah yeah. It was fun to watchyour career. Just grow yeah! Well, mine was just staying stagnant. Not I no nobut! No, you know, but, as you gotsort of more well known and biggerits like Kako, doesn't really say that on stage he doesn't shedidn't. You know it's her Gig, like we'th. All due respect. You know likeit's her gigand and it's about her, but it was interesting 'cause. We neverplayed any of your songs. You know, and it was just I interesting at some point-There's got to be a tipping point where you're like. Well, you just not sayit's o Kem Joiner, everyone who's, a fan of smooth jazz, now knows who youare y exactly, and that became a thing. You know h. You know th at the time Ithink h when I was starting in with CCO andjust starting to really get my career off the ground, which was like aroundtwo two thousand and nine. It was where I had a number one song on Ha radio andbut I didn't really have a lot of money until the BMI stuff started coming inlike later Rihso, so I really kindof needed the money. Like you know, yeah, seven gigs, youknow that's you know. So there was just Kinda like cognative distance. Going toyou know, hey, you know so m, and you know I I felt I mean I was. I wasgetting a heat from the industry in n. In a way that I don't know if CACO knew but that they were like you know, heyman, you know she she should be. She should be saying that or whatever youknow so I idn't e Manageher at the time. So people were Kinda, you know hey, youknow, that's so that was that and then, of course you know, there'syour mortgage too. You know so I ejoyid a lot so she torethe lawn. You know to be able to juggle your own career in her. Her GIG waseasy for that kind. O 'cause there was space in the schedule and lt shealsotored a good amount, exact OA year. So exactly exactly I mean, but thenther. You know there came a point to where it was like. You know, hey I meanyou know just you O. I think h like around two thousand and sixteen orseverteen. I was very doing limited gigs, like maybe just four or five inan entire year. You know and then it just and I just allowed to dwindle down.You know, she'll, say: Okay, O do the birds thing I get great. So I ditchustwo songs and then that was it got y, you know so it was it was it wasn'tlike this. You know you're in the band kind of a thing right, so um and', moreof a featured guy, so yeah yeah, yeah yeah, yeah nd. She kinda accepted thattoo yeah. You know and she's a great person like yeah mean to it's. Justthese are tricky things you deal with just being in a music business, yeahyeah it is it is. I mean it's B, it's a balancing act. You know because youknow this is this. Is like your livelihood honestly, you know, and it'syou know so you have to Cutt your teeth. I call it,you know putting into work yeah, but she's. Also what I liked about herwas t a she. He was always really loyal to her band. Ye H still is the same same guy, asfor yeah and shealways insisted on having a band also seems to be a different. Actually, Istarted to see that trend. She started to do more cruises where it's likeshe's, the futured artist and they have a house band and I was like oh well,that's kind of a sign, and now you know in the smoth Jezzings 'cause. You werea part of also the set a saxback e and, like that's like you, get a bunch ofartists together and then there's one band. so that's he two bands less thanthere were before hi something else to do. becausecausewe're, like you, know, 'cause the SAXPACKES JB was j. The originalsaxpect is actually Jefka, Sho, Steve, Col and Kim waters. So but then I Icame to to the SAXPACKS. I was in Ha saxpect and Kecomatsui and my own thing-and I think that was like a couple of years, like maybe three or four yearswhere that was going on. But it's like you know, Jeffe bl. Okay, so are youcool with him on Bass, N him an basin so wee thinking we're going to go withthis e on drums and he'll just shoot US attack and B be cool, okay, cool yeah,Berning, treswil great or you know, whoever. So, whoever it is at the time-and we all KINDOF, agree on that Um. So I as on sometimes you know, we won'thave guitar, you know cut down on colls, it would just be baand drums and andkeaboards. You know so Um but h again, it's all a balancing act. You know withthat, because the truth of the matter is, you know, smooth jazz wasn't on aincline is actually kindo on a d decline, so hartest are getting paidless. There's, there's less money to go around, you know, agents or trying toget you to do it for this and you're like okay, you know we, we did it forthis this time you know. So it's like you know w. You know how are ye goingto do that or you know you get a...

...situation W oh, come on we'll pay youthis and we'rl hire to ban. When I tried that and you'r like the bandsucks, you know so it's like yeah, you go in town and it's like you think,everything's cool. You had a nice time to relax. You slept on the plane andyou get the sound check and you're like Oh boy, thisiso a long day, ats, the worst ah O atter. How goodyour charts are say they read just to get the GIG, butthey nd they an learn, the stuff and more everything ill, sound, Latin or or everything I swinging. Rin, like youknow like this is sixteenth straight. You know I's not swung. You know, andit's superimportant just little things like that. Tha really annoy and DRI becrazy. Yeah Yeah! I hear you it's a challenge in th,the whole jazz thing, 'cause, yeah and so y you've been out here. Doing itstill don'still feel like it's kind of declining, or do you think it's goingto be around in on Yoars? I think it will be around for those who are smartabout it. You know, you know the truth. An the matter is, is the fans or therradio has has been on a steady decline for the past several years, Um but um.So so, there's N, there's no more radio to push concerts, so artists arepushing toir shows on Sociamenia. Now you know so that's that's been aninteresting thing and if artits aren't willing to do that, yeah right, he e upbeing a lot more work. Yeah Soar, it's more work! I mean because you'realready Dong n work producing and record Y, ah Ow, its just crazy 'cause.I was like man back in Te Day. All you had to do was just play and he could. Iguess se just wear a loial shirt were COS shirt. You know and just be good atwhat you do. But now it's like you got Ta Pyour producing. If you, if youdon't, have the money, you're mixing and then now you're, also promoning Y,you get your promone nd and lay hey man. We need you to push the show, which isthe most annoying tex that an artist can ever get is hey man. Could you pushthe show for next weekend? It's just like from a quote. UNQUOTE: Promoter O.I can't you're the promoter ithoone. Who plays the saxophone. You push theshow thatslike by definition, promote a show like n points of Promotersplse S. do notsaamadening everything. You know it's its ast crazy,it's like because, honestly, I think promoters you know. Look. I don't thinkthey really know what it takes to put to make a record. I don't think theyknow what it takes to do: a performance to prepare for a performance to hapairto write songs, so they just think it's just a thing, but you're also supposedto be responsible for all this other stuff. I mean you know we're not SuSuperman. You know t you know W we're not good at everything. We sometimeswe're just good at certain things. You know so and that's okay, you know n thepromoters. I you need to be good at marketing. You should be good onfacebook and insogram and twitter and everything else to know it's o come on.You know just like people like hey man, where have you been you haven't been on.You know you haven't been on Facebook Lyeah, because I'm writing a song rightnow. You Know Yeah Yeah. We want me to be Haasebook channing with you rightinghis own and I think overall, that adds to the decline of music over. You know.Music, like yeah the Cathality of music, because people are spending too muchtime this other stuff. Like you know, we live in La MMTHERE, used to be asunset strip that was a bad ass music scene down there. Yet a went down thereto see the scene because the bands were great, H, Athen, they started kind ofpay to play and, like you know, you you buy tickets and then you sell your owntickets and, like all the all the workload that was supposed to be a clubthing, I'm like whan, isn't my job to promote your club and I on here to playa great music. You get people in the club yeah. So now you have bands thataren't necessarily graded their instruments or greatat write ou songs,but they have three hundred friends yeah, so they're Goso. Now you go downthere and t's hit or miss whether anything's going to be good because et,don't matter whether e ' good a OO. They bringinpeol yeah and hardringseverything down: Tho Quality and you'R you're an exception: 'cause you're, aawesome player, an Asom writer, awesome producer and tetill and you're willingto take on all this work and you're smart. It's just like you said: Yeah,you're, smart about all this stuff and yeah. I mean it's just no one's goingto do it for you, it's just crazy because you y you have to it's like nowdays. The climate is, as you have toget to this intersection of your Yo r, your art and business and like now youhave to have this business mine and you just have to start thinking about fansand different things like that. So it's it's another loa. I don't thinkeveryone's built for it. No, and I don't think everyone should be rightand maybe that's what separates the men from the boys. I guess Erth the girlsfrom the WOMENA Yo. Look. I think that th, you know it's. It would be nice ifit were to be more about. You know talent and and allowing the artis tojust be authentically artistic and and not have to focus so much on promotion.An all of these things I mean 'cause Yat, you don't you you can't tell, butyou'll you'll you'll start slipping...

...with your music and you start pickingit up on the promotion. You know ing your albums. It starts elling, you knowyou know I, and there are some albums that I've listened to some artist, thatI've listened to for years, and I and I listen to some of the recent stuff- I'mnot going to say it, but I'm like man. It's like you know it's not it's justnot where it used to be you kno. Well. The other thing is that people aren'tpaying for music anymore. So and that's the thing: There's not Hav to be abudget for records that was way bigger and then you would have a producer andyou'd have a team of people in the studio, all making decisions and all ythey're talented producer people yeah worthwhile. Now that you're not butalso helps to have other ears as t qualified ears and executive producers, but there's no budget for that now nowwill they give you, however much they give you for an advance and you make arecord yeah? Well, you know. Nowadays I mean shoot. I mean this. The advanceisn't even worth E. I mean it's just it's nowadayss, even thinking from theUm executive site mm in advance that you're giving you know just think about,like you have to think how many recors are theye going to sell. How much isthere streaming worth right now because, like 'cause, I have my own label now nJon, an Medate Company. If I'm signing someone you know th the you ha you havtto make your money back if you're going to give te n advance, so you have to beable to qualify their value pretty early ight pretty quickly. You know a and not try to make these big bolpredictions. You know and just kind of like be playit to where you know anaverage. You know you're, probably going to do this. Your treams are goingto prive, you Thir, so we'll probably make this amount of money, and so thenthat would basically mean that we can probably give you this, which is whichis o your three bucks. Well, I mean it's. It's crazy 'cause, Imean n, the streamings have changed, you know with their PA what they payand you know 'cause. I think itunes is starting to I'm not sure if hey've doneit yet, but I don't know if they're still selling like this each song but they're pushingmore of the UM. What is it you pay montly for Apple, music or yeah, you pay mtly andthen now you can just listen to as many a songs as you're right on right on I'msaying Don' own anything, you don't own anything! So it's you know it's weirdman, I'm just wondering where music is going to be yeah. You know five yearsfrom now. I can't predict to be honest with you. I mean because, if h, if, if you're not making money andstreaming, you can't sell records 'cause like a by the record, but youknow G, I bought this brand new car and there's not even I didn' Er had toplayit. If Isaany player in my car G, I bought a car and I almost didn't Ididn't check for a CD, but luckily it had because it was alone.No, I was not concerned I'. Have one in my car now yeh so ill. Ask two cars'cause. If you can't sell an actual product yeah as an artist, how can you make money?Well, it goes back to the renaissance days where people pay to go, see you,which is another reason that right now is like so devastating 'cause. Now it'slike the only way to make money is doing, shows and not shows, and now wecan't even work. You know work th, you can't go out. You can't do anything. Imean you know can't go to a bar. I mean this is seriously depressing yeah. It'sI mean it's like it's. Who would have thought twenty? Twenty would have lookedanything like this. I mean I was. I was geared up for twenty twenty hous. Thisis Goingto, be great, you know, and there you go like you know, Gosh I meanyou know y. When I get back on stage. You know I just hope, I'm not crazy ora lunatic or anything like that or somethings off. You know you Knowli what happen to only goneinsang without noticing it right'cause when you're like by yourself. So muchit's like you, don't know you'R E you're insane until you're with otherpeople and and then they see you off and you're like its nothing, nothingwrong. I just kicked the cat, that's wrong. I do all Hame at home. Now Som deal yeah, so you know it's good to getaround people. That's. Why hey think e invited me for t for the borecast yeah.It was good to get out o the House and yeah. I'm glad you came too 'cause. I've donea couple of remotes and it's always the sound its like, not y, you know andlike I don't have it we're we're. Basically, six feet apart H. basicallyyou know, I don't know it's. I and you don't know what to believe anymore awhy.I know I wear a mask whenever I go out, but atthe same time it's like Causeif, you don't have it, I don't have it we'regood podcast. You know exactly, but I understand everybody has different adifferent take on it and different fears and whatnot. So I'm really gladthat she came over 'cause yeah ye H In't me and my wife Mwow yeah yeah man, that's Gosh, yeah.I tell you man that that can make two...

...people enemies, O TWA it. It's been good. So far,okymaybe the dog, Kinda Yeah. You know 'cause. For the last three years, I'vebeen on the road for a lot I mean we've. Okay, I've done probably a hundred andforty shows with wite a year. You know it's a lot of road. I mean we'reusually out for the weekend n when come home for like Monday, Tuesday Yeu, butsometimes we're out for longer than that. But it's been a lot, so it'sactually been nice. For me to be home, U N? W It'll be nice, for me too, Imean it has been cool to Kinda, like 'cause 'cause. You know I had thesethese goals that were just like on the on the wall that I haven't reallymessed with and and these songs that weren't finished and Um. So it's it'sKindo cool to be able to you know just kind of get back into honestly. Youknow if you're, not crazy, you can center yourself, you can. You canprobably come out a better person. You know y a better musician like now. Youknow it's like every single day. I'm make isure I'm practicing because I'mnot playing shows. So you know practicing everyday is like all thatmuch more important H. I I you know, I will say you know. A lot of my fans arelike e. What are you going to do? Basebook live and it's just like you know, noo thing right now. It is athing you know so it's like. Should I do it? I don't know I don't feel likeit or whatever. I'm not sure what it is. Um, it's and everyone's doing it andI'm like you, know: Okay, let them have and I'll just you know, focus onwriting riting, music. I guess, but I he'll do Someng at some point yeah.Well, I I did one with a friend of mine and then I got this idea to do apodcast and I've been just devoted by I'm like no. This is what I'm going todo with my time know know: Let's get thes thing: Goin and I've Yeahi've beenkind of aner fan of Podcasto oo o a few years,and I'm like- and I have a lot of people like you that I love to talk toand- and I think peoplel get a lot out of these conversations, I'm hoping thatthey will so m. Why don't I do this and give back a little bit and create yanthing that you know can add to the music community here in l, a orwhetever across the country. I think it's great man, I think is, is great.What you're doing there are a lot of us out of work rightnow, waiting the Ebectiv playing shows and touring, and I know I've had to dowhatever. I can do to take my mind off the situation from time to time and oneof the ways to pass the time is to catch up on some books. You've missed.But if you're like me- and you don't love to read, there's another way you can consume.AUDIBLL DOTCOM has thousands of titles to choose from including audio booksabout music production, songwriting, the music business, music theory,instructional, audiobooks and biographies of your favorite musicalheroes. But besides audio books, you can also listen to podcasts, theatricalperformances, alist comedy and exclusive audiooriginals. You won'tfind anywhere else right now. You can get a free, thirty day trial if youvisit, audible, trial, dotcom, slash, dive bar rock star, that's audible,trial, dotcom, slash, dive bar rock star, and you can catch up on youraudioreading. I'd like to take a second to thank youfor listening to the dibar rocks our podcast as a new pod CAS. Getting theword out is a vital part of what it takes to keep the show on the road or off the road, as their current casemay be. If you would like to support the ploudcast all you got to dosubscribe wherever you listen and if you have an extra minute or two wesleave a review, you can also share and follow the potgast on your social mediaAPS. Okay enough begging, I hope you'rehaving fun and once again thank you for listening. You know: There's a lot of musiciansout there there's a lot of struggling musicians out there, man, especiallynow yeah and Um. You know the whole thing like Um, actually welfinishing upa book. That's that's tailor to musicians and yeah yeah. So it's the title is as howhow to turn your music talent into a six figure income. That's awesome, Y,AH YEAH! So so so I go into like Um some it's it does cross the business itdoes. It does force you to have to have a business mind, because TrutteMatteris is that you are a product like Ron the end Youre brand and a brandeither is valuable or not invaluable, you're valuable to your mom and yourfamily. We get that bet we're talking about valuable, F R money right. Yousee what I'm saying so that's a different 'cause, my mom maket him payshapeor, but she's going to love. You I's Gongto, Lo Yor, music, right right,right, hwhat about making your music valuable to the marketplace. I see whatI'm saying: 'cause ears H, thinking like that is not necessarily artisticthinking, is more jisvalue worth money worth thinking. You know what I'msaying Soso. So that's Kindo how that...

...book that that I'm finishing up is isUm. It's is tailor to to that and the streaming and the fans and growing thefan base, and also, how do you keep them, keep them activeand keep them groing and keep them buying, because they're fans they'regoing to buy your music. You know for the rest of their lives. They're got tosupport, you know what I'm saying so and that's your money, you know so so.So that's that's an important thing. I mean unless you want to display guitar,you know and just sor yourself yeah. You know, and I saw it Wat's cool too,there's nothing wrong with that. Absolutel. This book is not Fr. In fact,you might be a happier person if you just decide to do that. You know IV.I've debated that for years on my head, you know that's. I think I think that'sthat's true, but then there's a lot like I get a lot of emails o. How do Imake it in the industry? You know t's like W. Industry is money yeah, youknow so it's like I want to make it in the industry. H means that now you'retalking money now you're becoming a entriprener. So that's a world thateven if you're a sideman I mean I've, put out my own records and stuff. Butmost of my living I've been a base player. You know even as a sideman likesome of the m. One thing I always say is like I: Don't have the luxury ofnecessarily liking the music that I'm playing. You know 'cause, sometimes you're goingto do whatever GIG is going to pay. You Yeah O. that's one thing you give upwhen you decide to be a professional musician. I no lonerhave that Lutury of like. I just do this, because I love music. Well,somenights, you ain't going to love them, no you're! Not, and that's thething I mean because yeah you're right, because if you're, if you're, actuallyat home and you're performing mean you e just you're just playing for yourselfand you can make your own s, you can make yourself happy. You know andyou're, not thinking about money which is actually a great place. To behonestly, you can write great music when you're not really concerned aboutwhat everyone else cares writ and thinks about it. But then, when you sayO you Kn, I wish I could do this for a living living equals money. Yeah Yeahmoney equals industry value brand yeah. So you know so you know if you got tostep into that world. It's going to come with a lot O yeah and it's a lot harder work thanyou think it is. It is especially as an artist yeah, it's a little easier forme and that's one of the reasons. I am assined man honestly, because I had myown band back in the nineties when I got out of college and they went backto Denver and I put together with my brother and stuff and after even justmaybe wewere together three years by the end of that, after just having tobe because I was the bandleader mhm having to do all this work and book theGigs and book the sound guy that week and somdidn't players started subbingout now. I don't know who my drummer's going to be on playin five nights aweek. If you' got a bad guy for five nights, it's No oweek! You know Ye. Idoing something like that. Where we' play, I don't know. If e were joe she'stwo shows a night. I don't know who it was that we had, but I was like okay bySunday on a second game, I'm pretty sure you're going to figure out theGAKE, hopefully by ten I know undaynight isgoing to be great yeah, so I just got to the point whereI'm like I do. I want to take my base to the GIG play the SOGS, get my moneyand go home tired of doing that te about myriginal,music, anymore, O n, so that always sort of went to the the side. When youknow there's a brand for sidemen too and Youe creatin a Oland as a sidemanas well, because either you're the Siman, that's dependable or not, andthe industry will know that and wil also have value or not based as aSideman Yeah Y. U know ass a drummer or a base player or anything like that too.So m musicians who were you know who are thinking about you know being asiteman. You know you'r a word of mouth is like yeah. Absolutely you knowyou're O, that's another big rule, just no matter what the GIG is, kill aCillit like be as good as you possibly can. Even if it's the war Speci well,especially if you live in a major city like yeah l, a yeah Ho know O who'sgoing to be in that bar e H, o you amazed it who just shows up toyour GIG. So even if it's a dumb little duo or something be, is best that youpossibly can you know yeah. That's true that I can't wait to read that book e H,Audio Boo, 'cause, I'm not Ol. You know. I think I am going to have one as anaudio can yo make a movie 'cause. It looks. I don't know it won't, be anaudio. You can listen to it when you roun out, but that's great, that'sexactly. I think Taror amuzing into money, Yeawell, you'R GOINGTA, have tocome back when it's out and we'll talk all about that. Yeah. Absolutely wellspeaking of books. So I'm just hanging out on facebook scrolling through andand see a novel, Oh yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, Yazaria th, yes, Tha wrote likeso just to get off the topic of music 'realso, a novelist yeah, yeah man. I IH finished that surprising. I I was writing that while I was touring weCACO believe it or not. Ah,...

...but H, yeah man, I've always been ascience fiction kind of K, Tu and critic onmovies. They should havedone this better or I should have been this and you know so. Then I decided towrite my own thing and use my ridiculous, crazy imagination and justput an'cause you culd do anything in any haracters Jis, like I'm supermanlike I'm God, my world. This is my world and I reallyenjoyed it and and the novel's been doing great, you know I tore with it. Imean books are heavy, though so I mean the book is like Hound. It's like afour hundred pages, so I can only bring you know. Dependit on you know. If Igot my goal status or not yeah herlines woild get you oh yeah, yeahyeah. Of course it's on Ebook and things like that, but you can actuallyI sold a lot actually on a rowd, believe it or not. That's yeah yeah.Hundreds thousand o like what a great idea and this new book that you're areyou going to print the new BOI'm gon re that too yeah yeah 'cause, that's Gointo be 'cause in a way it's Al. It's all just merged now and people want, eventhough they don't have CDs to buy people still want to go homewithsomeexactly. They want to go home with something I mean 'cause. You knowI've been thinking about this because you know CDs, honestly man like lastyear, I would say last year, was the worst year for selling CIDS that I'veever seen. I mean people, but but you know, when you have your own label, youcan actually see the downloads and stuff that I never had access to. LCrap Man, I turned just kicking, you know I mean but 'cause I didn't Kn, Ididn't when you were to label y. u you're not able to make that connectionR, but when you started my own label, you know now ou royal times you waslike. Oh Wow yeah. I mean I didn't, sell a lot of CDs, but you know youclearly dis this itens with Yo hus of the show right you know so so so that'sth t's, that's good insight. It's not Murch, but e, but but obviously you dowant to have something CDs. I don't know A. I gotta figure it out. I Ebecause at one point I just decided that this is just merge. You know solike people will buy them E. I think it wasa tipping point again. You know it's like. There was a point where it's likepeople are just buying them because they're merch and they want to takesomeon home, maybe they're going to play it. Maybe they're not, but now itit like. You said it gets increasingly harder and harder to play a C D. Nowit's like. I don't even want that kind of Merch I mean unless, unless you'reselling the booklen or somethingrighttit's like these are thepeople who performed in and who played what whend, how and you're just signingthat and there's a picture, and you know he doesn't even have to have tosee people. That's a goot idea, O that is really frustrating e, not havingliner notes anymore, especially in a jazz thing, where you've got featuredartists on songs, yeah yeah like how do I know that now exac? How do I knowthat Eric bansis playing that baselane and I guess you can add- to see thetothe thing- I mean it's likeighyeah like a repackaging in their head. Itmight be worth it just to print booklets and sell them. Foryeah, YeahYeah answer something cas sa you now like you can sell it. I mean, because Idon't know I mean CD's printing is is going down M, but just the thing is is:Is that? Well, if I'm going to sell you a bookle, I migt as well put the CDwith it. Now we're back to Squir. I'm telling you I: U Ellin! It out, Iguess I want to tell you that it's a book et and then that way when you cometo the Mert table, you're, not thinking CD, you're thinking, Booklyn, but thene CD, but it's the same thingrigh yeah, I don't know, but I will throwout the CD I have no use for it. Yeah me neither an I'll, probably rebuy iton itens on my phone asoting. I won't even import it 'cause. I don't evenhave a CD player on my computer. So, Oh wo, how do I I don't have a CD playeron my computer either yeah? No even do that Ne's done man, yeah'Cauerel! It's done it's crazy! It's a drag, really Caese the sound qualitys.Still it's better! It's way better yeah! It's like yeah! I mean if wh n you,when you put the C there it is, there is the mix, yeah and then unor yeah,listening to it on your phone. It's ridiculous anyways t, but you know whaten with the headphones. The MP three is isnothing. You know what I mix thislast record on touch. One crazy thing is: I did a lot ofmixing with the phone speakers yeah I mean raterly, because I wanted to makesure and it's it's so crazy because normally I wouldn't have to think aboutthat. You know, and I could just use that and use my car and use a t V anddifferent things like that that I do use my t v speakers just to hear what'scoming out and Threa, you know and t turne everything 'cause, it's like goodmonos. You know kind of Asound. It's like you can kindo hear the balance,but it's the same with the phone too. So it's like you know, man O, listenMiman. This SOG's, nothing without the base because cause now they don'tunderstand it. So you like they, don't know what you're trying to do, becauseall they hear is drums and vocals or drums and sacks. So now you got to goback in and make sure that you can hear the base yo on the phone right exactlyyou know s. What that means...

...rolling off the base. I mean Donnowaits, thinner, the Otherin, ceaer tiny has or Hawk Mor Rasi. You knowit's like, so you got you'R adding this hunk. You know. I've got this littledistortion thing that I do with the base to Kindof, make it a littledistorted and you're right C rolling off the low in adding someone thathawked hawkness to the two cage, the stuff that really that you don't likeright, I'm adding it into the base. So t you can hear it on the phone and then,when you play it, you're like okay, okay, now when they're scrolling downINS togram an they hear it, it won't sound like yeah, but t you know. The thing is Iliterally: That is what P people are listening to the music, especially whenthey're scrolling they're scilling, with their phone and they're usedthey're. Not they don't have headphones on right, EI RARE! They had none USwatching their phone wit head phone Rightso. The speakers on the phone issuper our. I also have a a Bluetooth speaker, a check. Oh Yeah, you have alittle more low end. So then you can get a combination of like it's toohockey and you know yeah H, you know an that's what I need to use 'cause. Ihave the. I don't know if Thisa work, but I have the Amazon Um wha yeah, thethelasis yeah, you ow, the one I ee dropping ONTYAEA BYYEA yeah those, but you know whatmaybe somebody can develop a a a speaker system. That's like a phonespeakers system for mixing where you can like Liehait in your studio, itsjust little device or somehow and people can like hear it there andstartkeing. Well, I mean ID. I definitely send I email myself in MP,three of the mix mhm and then check it on my phone yeah yeah yeah me too.That's what I do it like. What are you going to do and it's it's particularlyhard with your style of music, where bases ter like the important thing yeahit s, it's harder, the more realistic like, for instance, Um, the title cut, which is touches likeall live band kind of sound. So those are the hardest because it's not like apop where you can really like do weird stuff with the base, and if it's like akeyboard baseand, you can really riht if it's like a real base, depending onwhat key that is saying, it can be challenging it Hoh. So it's you know,but I know I'm a base player you knowit's, like almost what youcould do is maybe just like record your base just by itself and just just MPimpy through yourself the base and just see what it sounds like on the phonejust by itself, just yeah messing with the Eq I mean. I know you can pr t uselike a garage ban or something like that. Just maybe just to see where youknow where it a sound is on the phone yeah, so infortunate, it's a weird time and all friends Ijust feel like as I' mentione is really tough right now, which is an odd timeto start o podcast, encouraging people to be musicians. I know people areProbaly, you know Han, I'm so donb with his crap, like you know, I'm not getting paid,and now I'm stuck at home and forget it plang an and pri not going to know howto play by the time we can play is like oh shoot ever got. We'rl can have woid.What's a SE cord again and I've been doing a lot more writings, I've thenplaying guitar and keyboards and, like I'll just play the base, and thenthat's done yourenot I mean this is the longest I've gone in my entire, I meanI started playing when I was nineteen and pretty much full time. I went toschool for a year and UH. You know the longest I've gone without playing aGIG. Probably in thirty years, yeah yeah me Toossane, it's crazy. This isyou can really lose your place. Yeah Yeah, you gotta, you gotta stay ontop and Ou go back on all those old songs and- and you know that's the onething I learn when it comes to practicing. Is You know, try not topractice the same thing all the time. Some people practice. The same thingright and it's like you got to keep practicing something that feelsuncomfortable at kind of feels unnatural. So what do you practice andwhere do you get stuff to practice? Well, you know I'm still, John ColdTrain Fan, I'm still a Charlie Parker man Um. I love canniball Um, so I'mlistening to a lot of older guys. You know that are that are playing evenlikit. Mong stuff, like you know, macio's got a nice outtol stuff. Youknow he's a little backy yeah he lalky Punky. You know so so I'm listening to a lotof older Horne, because I I don't want to lose touch 'cause look. I lovesmooth jazz and contemborary Jez as much as I do, oh as much as I can ove it as much as I love it. That'spretty great, but I will say that I don't you don'twant to lose touch of the horn, the original sound, an what the hornssupposed to sound like ye e people, Thare recording records, I'm like isthat really a sax of Yeah? You know! So that's why I'm listening to a lot ofthe older H, guys so kayys know this is the sound of his axophone not supposedto sound like a toy or something yeah? Well, that's.What I think is is really apparent in the in your touch CD. That's why Ithought it sounded old school because...

...it sounds real, yeah yeah, it's it's!You know I will say like I mean this, this record. The touch was probably Imean I took my time on an n. It took my time with t e recording with the withthe playing and the approach nd. Like you said, the reverbs and stuff. I LoveTho SOUNDOF, the old school witne Haston, you knowthdiculous, soundo old,school plates and stuff, but you know they just sounded great onon on on the saxophone too, but also you know, tone wise. I've always been atone person any m an maybe that's. The reason why CACO enjoyed yeah having mewas like technical suff is great, but it's likefor me. It's like one of those three notes sound like those Fournos. Youknow, likeyou know how. How did they sound on their proach to that? Andthat's that's the approach with touchis. It's really just just it's like youknow, you're touching Thi axophones like w. If I was, if I was recording itand I was la it, wouldn't feel like it's loud if you were sitting rightthere, but you could be with other saxophone place but hold onho o Oh goshet out of here. You Know Oh yeah, you know so so so you know. That's that's that'sthe whole thing and then, depending on how you have your microphones anddifferent things set up, I think you can really create a great sound withthe saxophone. You know I mean a lot of people are just doing these same thingswhen they record thei horns, but there's a lot of tools. You know, evenwith R, using the two microphones Um, I was able to really capter a a reallyrich sound that I didn't think it could come through the Outo. I mean becausenormally with Supren, I'm always using two Mikes, but with the ATO like havingone point here and then the other one Pointin Kindo. This way and just kindoflike playing into the space rather than just into the micropholne MEMORSO, intothe space of the Moor you're kind of Miking the room, his Kindo, like it'sKindo like Mike in the room, because because my whole thing is it's like, ifI record the saxophone onto you, know the computer and- and I hear it I'mlike that- doesn't sound like the way it sounds when I'm playing right nowright. So I wanted to sound like how I'm sounding right now without anythingbeing plugged into it. Mhm You know so so how do we create it to sound the way?It sounds right here. It sounds great here. It sounds horrible on tape. Soit's the same thing like when you re when you're doing soundcheck, you, likeyou, know t the Monitor. These monitors are just like can't. We just make thesound sound like the weight as sound asound. I don't know. What do you need to do todo that, but ke it sound like a saxor yeah. Well, that's you know thegreatest engineers they go into the room and like listen to a drum kit.HBACK into the control room and they tri to make it sound like they justheard the drum ket yeah mean or a Guitaria, listen to the GUITARIAP.First, yes, go make it sound like that, it's a little harder when you don'thave a control, room and you're the guy doing both things yeah exactly exactly,but it's a definitely a worthy goal. Is' worthy goaway Ey can sound likelike a Sax Youo Thougt, it's kind of crazy whenyou actually kindof have that mindsetting the studio, because it kindof changes things ah because now you're not just like my whole thing. In thebeginning, my earlier records, some of them great songs, other I'm like holycrap. That really sounds bad, but my approach was to make it sound good onceit gets in a box like once it's there, okay fix it. My whole mind was fix itmindsetigtbut. Now, it's like I'm before it's like I'm adjusting andgetting the sound right in the microphone and different things likethat before we even do anything and I'm likehy, and I listen to it and I'm liken. That sounds like a horn player right there, that's cothat's to bake a song.Now you know intell, my daughter comes in and she pulls the microphone overhere and e forever to set it up. When she turns I knob or something barelyust, everything set yeah H, h, Wow y well, yeah! That's when I was akid we used to say we'll fix it in the mix that was before computers. I meanyou can fix a lot of things for sure I've fixed. You know I by a couple ofsack of oplaers, I'm not going to mention. I did a lot of fixing, but isn't the mixing you're doing themixing as well? I O Yeah Ike a so much easier when Youdon't get it right, thefirst time, it's crazy, how much misin mixing you don't have to do Ma Don. Lo, like you like geting, Ilittle bit of Copersion here, but I like these catastrophes, yeah exactlyIr Deing like what am I going to do with this? No, it's L Ke, it soundsgood. There we go. It's like everything sounds good. The symbols are cool. Wehaven't touched anything everything is like center, there's no e on anythingrit and the saxophone has no Eq on it. Everything is just lam and it stillsounds like you, cound, actually listen to this, even without doing anythingiand from from there. You do subtle little things. You know just not overoverpushing anything. You know just a Ot okay. You know this is a little bitof compression here and that's how it you know, and it that's how it works.You know it just comes out nicely like that yeah, you know in Gane structure Imean the whole for me back in a day I...

...used to record or or have my recording,but I never really set t e games out like I would just have. Okay, you knowjust play whatever, but now it's like you know I I know how to set the gameand for everything, sor thes head room and all f those things that's likebefore you even fix anything. It's like these little fundamental things. Theyreally don't have anything to do with mixing like you know, Yeah Yeah for sure so wow.It's all learning! Yeah this is your seventh record, seven yeah,so eah it's a lot of records, lot of learning its ALOTSO. Are you alreadyworking on the next one or you know I plan on putting EP Wich Ist like acouple of songs. All these songs were recorded and produced duringquarantines OOO. So it's like five songs. You know, may four or five. If Iget the fifth one done, but yeah and that's all I mean that's my last thingwith an EP 'cause. Why not? U Know Arb ar people evenbuying whole records, now they're going to go andyeah, ND and preview it on itsand by the single that they want or whatever you know, so, exactly yeah, anthat's n. You can go e, a Ot, more often 'cause, you're, doing less tunesand a and that's another thing about actually keeping the streaming incomecoming in is the more that you put out there the more it kind of keeps itgoing rig. It's a numbers game. You can't, like you know one of the crazythings s when I was signed. If I knew what I knew now, I would n' be like heyguys. We need to put out an po we need to do. You know because can't go yearand a half witout that it's just like your income just starts to just taperdown. You know you gotta hand in when you put out in he music, the Ol it itlevels out. The older music and the People was oh wow. I didn't know you.Did this allright H, yeah, that's cool, you know, so it's just like help. Soit's always good t, Hav, music out there, the consistent content, Co,consistent content, that's yeah! That's Ly! You know fial! Well, that's cooloeread that it's all yours now, it's all Myi didn't realize it could getpaid that much from sound exchange. I was like I was likeyt'like what man I know thisLa. How much were they getting? Well? Fiftypercent? Oh, my gosh- it is interesting. 'cause people think getting signed isthe end I'll beall, but an a more again. It's going to take you a lotmore work and a lot more investment lot more invest. I mean, I think what yourpath has been kinda good, because Y, you, the label, you needed a label toget established yeah, and now you don't? No, I don't. Now you have your brandnow you have your name. It's ore, something and y you can take over. Butto do all that stuff from the start would have been a challenge. I think itwould have been a challenge, but I will say that things don't cost as much asit used to cost IMA recording doesn't cost as much. I think that, likehonestly, you can you can pyou could put I mean Icould probably put a cheap studio together. That sounds good yeah, Ohyeah, W W Y honty on the genre too, I manwa pen on a Gohn rb if you're R, Iwilddepin on your ear R, two o for sure you know. I think that you will berelying more on that if you're lacking in a lot, but ifyou're doing like rock music is still really expensive to make with the drawrooms, a room that you can record them. Tar See a preamp for every Mike, youknow Aa and that's expensive, yeah, so kindit depends but then again the last few records I've made I'veprogrammed imd writing Wa, you know they sound live as anything, so samplesare Gome. So Gal, like some of the drums, are, are getting great theyre.Like Amazing Thei, I still used native instruments, studio drammer and I I ifI hire out I mean these are samples that were recorded in like oceaned waylike. If I hired I out, I might get better playing bub you're not going tosound as good exactly I I've just learned to be a pretty good programmerand that's a thing man, people can't tell Y, I mean okay, you know, maybeyou might maybe you might not fool or chat right or something but right, butwho's. You K, O who', who just listend to rock music, is not a musician yeah.Yeah, and especially when you're listening on your phone, an an M Bthree who cares, you know I'm not going to notice ae around. I me it's likeit's crazy. Now I mean it's like wonder why some of these softwares even havelike ninety six K and stuff like what is a brast of even having home his highbid. If it's all going to be just M P three, I mean actually ster someprppreservation that happens in Hige, and you know when you actually go downtomb three depending on the big quality Rao so so like. I do recommend like if you, ifyou can do like ninety six K when it gets bounced down N P three, it doelsound bitter. It sounds a little better. You know for Twforty, eight twenty four asa isfine. OGH! That's like to ninety six M. IT'S GOINT! It's going to really runyour processor, now bat, if you, if you like, if you I would say you can do it.If you just...

...everything, is done, but you just on orecording vocals a maybe you can just bring that into onehe recorded boas aNin interesting like that and then Bouce s down before you mix exactlymounceand downyh o try that yeah, I think of the sessions that I do thatpeople call me to do that O here out of my studios, probably thirty percent, what ninetysix aythose people are still forty, eight twenty four yeah. Well, somepeople ar even just t sixteen forty four sixteen yeah NOI would definitelynot recommend t yeah, because you know because the more the more sounds thatyou add on a sixteen bit, the less e he qualities are just start. And when Ichanged to forty eight, I definitely noticed a differ yea. It was noticeabledifference, yeah forty eighto. Ninety six, I haven't done a full tune orrecord like that. So I would say when I wt I W I togend what I've Har. What Ihear more about a forty six. Ninety six is more for, like um M, like movies,like hat lower in like if you're watching a movie and MONL Tho. You knowthose kind of thing so thets Gong to hit your subway exctly exactly andthere's Somec some some high end areas that are like really really rich upthere. I don't think that it's something that's necessary for whatwe're listening to now. I do think that there is. I have noticed, a differenceon hiring when bouncing down from there to MP. Three though Oh yeah, I don'tknow, Maybeno one's probably anybo got to Tel o. This has been VR far theneardiest yeah. So I I love it though ths ve. This hasbeen great. Well. Let me know when that EB comes out. Oh Yeah Yeah trng to getit out more yeah, YEA EA may Il sine yousomething you can tell me with. So you know tall what you think. Yeah that'LDbe amazing. I haven't seen you forever. It's been great to catch up, yeah! Well,you know it's crazy. You've been like ready here and it's like man, I'm beendriving by your house, Yeah Yeh. I live across right acrossthe treet from the four o five, so you iealy im CRI. I don't realize fort some reason. Ithought you were furter like now we're right here M I mean 'cause, I recordedUm. I recorded my record my last record, which is Um. What's the name of my last record,mainshak feed I havenit hitten down here, O y Oay? U W real on a treat meyeah, so mainstreet beat was like mostly all recorded like life, so wedid like eight or nine songs in one day. It's so interesting. The engineer I waslike you know one's oing that now I just wanted to do it so e Wen. Ifinish N Youre talking about like like th, the rythm section or the whole band,the Radom section, some of the saxophone- and I did more. I did mostof that at home, but most of all the rathom section Um was done like for thewhole record like one day, but we did one like that. Oh, we did do one likethat: a Roberd Studio, Yeah Yeah, you know- I I think I think you know mymistake with that was I should I should have. I should have gotten it mixedbetter, Oh yeah, I think organize great. It sounds cool, but that's part of thelearning process. To now yeah I saw school Bua you play like so onthe otherstuff in the and a you're like okay, I coul tell the difference right DiYouxot Yourself, which one the the Aersmi Song Don' Pe Myself Yeah. Isthat your first time dealing with live drums? That was like my first time thatit's that's a different thing. You know what, but now it's like with all thedrum replacements and the kick drums and snares. If I don't like it, I'mlike you know, the snare is not the right there, an US git dissing, I'mlike going through N, I'm like okay. There we go and then you go in you can you can do alittle little twiks here and there n and you got a brand new kickd Rom andit's like Nice. It's like Los us like that's what weneeded yeah I was in the I don't know if Ishould name him, but I was in a session with really extremely well known, Um, Engineer. Okay and T was funny 'cause.He we were talking about the drugs, I'm like yeah. It sounds pretty good andhe's like it doesn't matter, I'm going Ta re. I want to replace that kick any as soon as these guys leave. I'mreplacing all that Itas kicking a GOS AI replaced Tom's aa and gotten some great stuff. I mean Holy Cro. Ye sounds so much better thanyou know. So I mean you know it it's it's it's it's a learning Kurd, butit's also fun to to be able to do that. Man, rums yeah, you know mean you can',it's it it's difficult to replace things like symbols and unless it's acrash, but definitely not like ride symbols or Hihad, so it they ci Aoash,you can add a crash but not tat. Happy Efore, you can add a crash, there's notmuch! You can do with the high hads there's too much going on yeah. Youknow an dependin on how the an it's high and thing it goes through. EveryItsgo Tou everything, Yeah Yeah Yeah...

...and you still have the room sound. Ifyou, if you change the Tim, you still got the sound in he room, room sound,but sometimes that kind of makes it even richer, because now you've takenaway the the actual mikes that are on the toms and now you just have to rulerang e time and add it a different time. And now it's like you know, yeah, there's fun, stuff, Yeah Yeah. Ilove it o Veben, adding stuff. I didn't do that. I didn't do that. Lick yeah,but I started out with samples and moved into live drums and it's yeah,the trigeting. You can't treat that bass drum like as based from sample.Necessarily it's a part of a bigger thing, name en you've. Gotto mix thisbig thise his whole world is CRA. I mean I was so crazy when I first wasmixing a Aerowsmith Song. I Moin t tell you man. It was like thebiggest headache. Ias. I was you K, ow. The high hat was everywhere and it wasjust like I couldn't I couldn't you know isolated. I was just justannoying,but I mean you know now I I've got some. You know. I know how to do some somethings. Even if I'm not replace Ou, I had to get rid of the idea that, likeit doesn't sound like I want it to sound and let me try to make it thatmore now. It's like I pull up the drums and listen to what it sounds like andjust accept that and now let me make that sound the best I can make itexactly. Instead of like this, Scnar doesn't sound like that sample. I like,let me try to tweak it until it does never ends well. Yo know it dothing e thing as a whole, theyrrecording Y. AH ASEPET. I did another thing about. Like you know,what you put in is going to make your life better when you're mixing e. If weget those drums now, it's like. I want that drum to sound right before I leavethis studio or before I pus record, even yeah, you know Im. So sound to begood cause, it's easy in the backendhmyeah yeahthat's. A crazy thing about mixingman is, like you know, once you go in it's like half thats hat's, like y. uhalf the job is actually the recording part. Is it it s? T E asing, it's justlike it sounds making it sound good. When you go in you know, yeah I meanI've done a a lot of work like with fixing stuff like with saxophones anback in a day, and I tell you man, it's like I've learned so much now. It'slike you know, Ha not having to do that. You know yeah, I'm in the same boat. I remembermy friend, Rudy Cardanus OS. I think you've met I'm Tinger yeah anyway. Idid a like a journey kind of record with him and H. Chad played Chad right,another he's been on the show ye and he he played and he kind ofengineers his own thing. So I said I needd to sound like journey and he sentme tracks. It sounds like journey. It was great, but then for when we got tothe vocals and t w went kind of rung around studios and did most of it life,but not altogether when he did the EVO, the vocals. I rented a U Forty, sevenLi convinageor, Ol Iye, and I just it's my favorite Mike you know h just killedit and then, when it came time to mix there was a couple of things that Ilike the vocals, especially I tried to Ek you I'm like. Well, maybe it needs alittle more and everything I did was just like. No, no! No. I can't makethis any better. That means I did the right thing in the first place Y. Ican't this just sounds great. Just put the levels right Y, ah Y, O gotta, justo Meek Yu, just to make everything not fight each other. Here it was a bighuge, the same lesson. You know just gid it right in the first place yeah,then you don't got to do anything yeah anyway, wow yeah. We can't get a drinkbecause no bars are open. I know I got some beers right there. No, it's a lime, Soda Water, but youcan have it I'll, take it right,...

...tanksman, cool man. I really loved talking to thisdude and it's so great to see him. It was great being on the road with himfor so many years 'cause. We could have conversations like this all the time,and you know we probably found a little bit like old, dudes Menciong about themusic business, but everyone has their their generationbefore them that bitches about them and and whatnot. But I also think everyoneKinda has a point and- and you know it's hard to H- keep up with this everchanging music business sometimes and changes is h, sometimes weird andabrupt and and h can take you by surprise. So it's easy to pitch about.But I wanted to talk a little bit more about Kacomot Sui and what Jakem hadmentioned about her being really particular about our melodies. And youknow the four or five notes that are subtl little changes that you wouldn'tthink that we're very important were extremely important to her and shecared a lot about getting her music right on stage and when I first got inthe band she was married to Kozimotsui and Kazi was kind of the boss. Heproduced the records and produced all the the stage stuff, and we did thistrio piece and there was a bas solo in it, and it was my first tour of Japanwith her and we got to this big auditorium in Tokyo and we do thesoundcheck and I play the solo and I'm feeling great about myself, and I thinkI did pretty good and I got back stage and he was not satisfied and I was kindof takin aback a little bit. So he pulled in hisside and he says play more religiously. I don't know youknow. Christian Jewish Buddhist just follow the religious path of the baseplayer and me, as a you know, former Berkley students, a the guy, had donemany jazzgigs kind of was like I. I didn't learn that at Berkeley, so Idon't know what you're trying to say but um, okay, you know and I'm a littleyou know been out of shape 'cause. This is my solo. This is supposed to be mytime to do my thing you know, but it wasn't so I get on stage and spent the rest ofthe. I don't know we were probably out for three weeks in Japan or so, andevery night was just trying to do different things and and and eventually when I got back on someother gigs, where I am doing my own thing. I've got this whole other bag oftricks, thats Um, that I have that that I've learned and that ive figured outjust from being forced to not do my normal thing. So in the long run itended up really great for my playing I'm supergrapeul and he eventually left.But CACO still has that sort of vibe about her she's. She wants it a certainway, even though it's an improvisational thing, so you end up umkind of compromising and working together to get the kind of IBE thatshe's looking for and in the end, if you really just drink the cool AIDS soto speak, um I think you end up being a better player. I certainly did. I also can't wait to read his new bookthat he was talking about, that he's finishing up and everything that he hadto say about being product and thinking of yourself as that and all thosethings that go into you know being a professionalmusician versus a hobbyist m that was really cool and if anyone out there cando people do they make booklets and sell them asMerch. I don't think I'm smart enough to be the first one to ever. Have thatidea, but I would I would love to do that ecause. I Lo, you know it'd, benice to have liner notes and would people be willing to pay for that ad alive show. I don't know we'll email me and let me know if that's alreadyhappening and or if we've just invented the coolest thing to happen in twentytwenty. I don't know a couple of clarifications, because this show, asI've mentioned before, tends to turn into a bunch of names like we just sitaround and list names. I think that's. What musicians do it's kind of alanguage that we have but Pall Brown is a contemporary jazz, guitarist andproducer great producer check out his records. Christian is we've mentionedChristian a couple of times during the CACO talk. He used to be CACO's managerand brought Chikem in on the GIG, and we also mentioned Greco Barrado, who isa great gray. Guitarist hes played cko. He played Foro for years. He alsoplayed with Katy Lang, nd Andriqe Eglasius, and he has his own recordsout that you should definitely check out he's awesome and, lastly, I did goto college for more than just a year. I was in and out of Berkeley, but I therewas a solid year that I went to Berkeley that I didn't really gigglewhole. I was just focusing on school, but other than that I I was working formost of my college years before I got too busy and you know between it beingreally expensive and me starting to work. I eventually dropped out, whichis, is kindof common for people that go to Berkeley. It is really expensive,but ATY RAE. I hope you had a great time and you enjoyed Jackine Joiner...

S. wow you've made it to the end, I'mhoping it's because you completely enjoyed yourself and are now filledwith knowledge and inspiration to move forward with your dreams. If that isthe case, and you would like to stay informed of new episodes live eventsand General News, please go to dive bar rock str dotcom and sign up forh themalisist. If you have any questions, comments, corrections or complaintsabout anything you hear on the show. Please email me at Pan Mail at dive BarRockstar Dotcom, and you may even end up on the show we at the Dibar RockStar podcast with all of our hearts. Thank you for listening and remember.It's all about dreams.

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