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The Dive Bar Rock Star Podcast
The Dive Bar Rock Star Podcast

Episode 16 · 1 year ago

George Shelby- Never Sight Read...Ever (Phil Collins, The Voice)

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

George Shelby plays saxophone, clarinets, flutes, penny whistle, vocoder and many other random wind instruments. He explains that this is the plight of the modern day saxophonist. He also shares his insight into the Los Angeles session player world and talks about the modern horn section studio experience. He talks about being on the road with pop legend, Phil Collins. He reveals his secret to being a great reader and tells his story of meeting Barack and Michelle Obama.

www.georgeshelby.com

Real Men Wear Pink:

http://main.acsevents.org/goto/georgeshelby

Do you love audio books? You can get a free thirty day trial membership to audiblecom by visiting audible trialcom, dive Bar Rock Star. They have thousands of audiobook titles, as well as podcast guided wellness programs, theatrical performances, a list comedy and exclusive audible originals you won't find anywhere else. Get your free trial membership at Audible Trialcom, dive Bar Rock Star. Welcome to the dive, Bar Rockstar podcast, the show exploring the lives of professional musicians of all types, touring musicians, recording artist, songwriters, engineer's bar bands, wedding bands and anyone making their living in the music industry. Whether you've dreamed of being a professional or you already are one, this is the podcast for you. I'm your host, Eric Baines, and I hope that you not only find some entertainment here, but also some helpful tips, trade secrets and ideas that will help you achieve your dreams. I actually had a Gig this weekend and I needed about two days to sleep it off. It's pretty amazing how quickly one can get out of shape. It was a private gig in the Hollywood hills and supposedly everyone at the party had been tested for covid but the band was not required to be tested, so I'm not sure if it even mattered that the guests were tested and like make out with anybody or anything. But but it was nice to get back on the horse and the GIG went well considering we'd all had time off. You know, I haven't had a GIG for six and a half months, which is the longest I've gone without a Gig in about twenty eight years, and you know, it's been a nice break. But it's also nice that things are slowly getting started again and people are trying to be safe as possible and we can all do what we do because, you know, being a musicians more than just a job. Obviously, most of the time it's who you are. So it's nice to be able to be be us again on some level. Now I've done many, many, many gigs with my guests on the show today, starting around two thousand and two or so. I think. He's one of La's top call saxophone players. He's performed on many TV shows, including the grammys to bet awards, the Emmy's late night with David Letterman, American idol, dancing with the stars, the voice, just a name a few. He's done a ton of movie sessions, like the longest ride robots Garfield, the mask Zula Patrol, the Frank Sinatra story, fortune hunters and the most recent Adams family movie, and many, many others. He's performed all over the world with artists like Bobby Caldwell, schock a con stevie wonder, Michael McDonald, boss Gags, Frankie Avalon, Kevmo, Sheina Easton, Melissa Manchester, Johnny Math is, and he most recently was touring with pop legend Phil Collins, who has been a dream gig of mine for a very long time. He's also participating in a campaign called Real men, we're pink, which raises money to fight breast cancer, and I'll put a link in the show notes if you'd like to donate to that. His resume is so vast that I think we barely scrape the surface, but I hope you enjoy my conversation with George Shelby. You are a sax player mainly, yes, but you play all kinds of wins interesting instruments. Yes, and is that kind of it feels like that sort of a requirement of sacks players different from other horns. Yeah, it sucks. It means it's a lot to carry to the gigs and like, I would like to meet the first guy, the first shacks player, who went yeah, I played clarinet and flute too, and just dig his grave up and beat the crap out of a skeleton, because it's it's a huge drag. Yeah, you know, there's just an assumption that if you're a sax player, you play clarinet and flute and and really clarinets and flute. HMM, auto flute, flute, Piccolo, Bass, clarinet, clarinet. You know, all the shacks has baritone Tenor Alto Soprano. So, yeah, it's you. It ends up being kind of a Swiss army knife existence. So what do you need? Well, okay, I got that. I can do that. Haven't touched that for a month, but right, without you know, right. And you have kind of a I mean you've been playing for years, but you still have a pretty serious practice regiment. Yeah, yeah, I mean I try to do four hours a day steady. Wow, you know, partly because there are a lot of instruments to cover. Hm. So if I do a half hour to...

...forty five minutes on clarinet and flute, you know, and that's just the bare minimum of maintenance. Now and then I take an hour, so that will be about two hours long tone scales. Then I'll take an hour and really focus on something that I'm focused on when, you know, a song that I have to learn from, an upcoming whatever. And then, if I have any energy, hopefully at the end of the day, I just play. I just put on spotify or whatever MM and just try and go, okay, what would fit with this song if I was playing with this band? What could I come up with right and just just play and have fun. I think that's pretty important. It helps you to know your instrument, to right it. It helps you know the instrument. But but also we get so caught up, especially in Los Angeles being an industry town, down that I'm going to work and I'm working and music is work and we a lot of cats just like forget to have fun with it right, forget to enjoy it. They get so caught up and I got to to the next GIG and book the next thing. So yeah, you know, I try to still enjoy it. Yeah, it's tough. Once you decide to make it your living just sort of inherently. I think you have to put effort into still digging it. Hopefully. Yeah, sometimes, I mean, yeah, it doesn't. I don't know. If you get your dream Gig right off the bat, then I guess you're Golden, but sometimes it's work, it's yeah, well, you know. And there's also there's a certain La Studio mentality that I have found to be real interesting, of guys who are who are very good players, who come in and punch the clock and they do their three hour session and they play the notes correctly, right, and they're never emotionally invested in the project and the moment bamned, the minute that three hours are up, there out the door and you know, on in the next thing. And all my heroes and the players I admired always got emotionally invested in the projects. You know when when Herbie hackcock was doing the possibilities album and he called Wayne shorter and to play and a solo, he sat with Joni and wouldn't solo until he understood her meaning behind the song and you know what the Song meant to her and what she was trying to say. And that's when you know and you get everyone else, it comes to us like an Al Steven. Okay, good, roll the tape and you know, here my legs and out right. You know. So I think that's one of the drags about La is. You get a lot of players that are really great and not emotionally invested at all and that comes across and they're playing often times to maybe often, but a lot of time you don't need emotional investment. You play notes anyway. So, right, it's a Catfoo Jingle. So get in and play it and get out and right, you know. But yeah, I try, try, man, if you can't have fun doing this, yeah, you know, you're not digging a ditch, you're not behind the counter, you're not punching a clock. Yeah, I mean what we get to do is amazing. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, I enjoy it. Yeah. Well, I bet you guys are appreciating it more now that we can't do it. It's been it's been a real interesting time. Yeah, you know, because if you're not worried, you're not paying attention right to what's going on. I mean this is this is a life defining experience we're going through, just like eleven was and used to be you could go to the gate and wave your people good bye and and head back out. And and things change and we don't even think about you know, you get to the gate and you take off your shoes and you go through security and do the whole thing. That's we're in another paradigm shift now going forward. I just realized today I'm just going to need to get tested every two weeks. HMM, you know, because just to be proactive and be on top of it. Yeah, because, you know, just like we all have up to date passports, because you never know when the last minute tour was going to come through and you know today that can go. Good, let's go. You know, it's the same thing now, I think, for being tested. Our sessions are going to come up and if you can go, I got my certificate, I'm cool. I think it's going to be to your advantage. Yeah, it's tougher for horns because you're blowing air to it's yeah, yeah, you know, it's there's a whole spray pattern that has yeah, and especially if you know or in section, they stand close to each other or they sit close to each other and not anymore. Yeah, that's that's going to have to change. Yeah, be a real life before covid and life after, right, exactly. Yeah, so everyone's are Justin Yep, for sure. So which instrument did you start on? Where did it all start? So my dad started me on accordion. We went to the Milton Man School Academy of Accordion, Oh wow, and they gave you the accordion for two months and...

...like every week or every couple of weeks you would go into a room for free with like forty other accordion kids and saw a way at the book. And you know, at the end of two months that you go in and and my parents met with whoever was running the school and and he was like, Oh, George is just brilliant on the accordion and if you buys this four thousand dollar recording and it's really going to further his career, oh man. And my dad was like Ah, what, and he'll do what with that going forward. So he was always a big swinger of fan. So he started me on Outo sacks when I was eight and I hated it, you know, I just want to be out playing with my friends and doing all that. So he was like a half hour day that's all I want, you know. And we fought all the time because I had nothing to compare it to. I had none of my friends played. And Sixth Grade, which was a few years later, they wanted people to play for an assembly or something, so I went and I played some solo thing on sacks and everyone applauded and and that was the first dopamine rush of Oh, hang on now, you know, and that that started to light the fire. Had A great junior high teacher that that really pushed me and by the time I got to college, my dad walked in one day and he said, here's twenty dollars, here's the keys to the car. You've been practicing six hours. Please go away, and I was like yeah, another half hour working on this parker things. Woh, that's cool. So yeah, I was going to ask you about that too. How's your family feel about your practice schedule? Do you have an isolation booth? Yet? I have a room similar to this one. Okay, cool, but you know, when Lyndon I first gotten married, I'd literally practiced in a closet in the apartment. That was the only space I you know. So I move the close to the side and I had room for a chair and a music stand and it was actually under a staircase, so it kind of angled. Is actually pretty good sounding closet. And that was it, you know. And then I got to a room. And then when my son Jordan was born, I was practicing in a room and he came in and repatched everything that I had. One day he played telephone operator and that's when I went, you know, it's time to have a separate room, right then. Yeah, wow, plus, you know, I look, you're more apt to work when things are set up and you can just come in and turned it on and go right, you know, if you have to set it up and plug it in and turn it on. Yeah, I know, it's like you just have you get farther and farther from do and I like, especially if you're inspired to do something by the time all the KNOBS are there and the like, the creativities is gone. Now, right, you're get into that tech head instead of the creative head. Right, right. That's a so it helps for me because I have like all the horn set up at home, so I can go through a routine of a schedule of this one, then this one and the soprano now the clarinet and the flute, you know, and just grab them and go and not have to pull out the closet into all that. So yeah, it's real hopeful having a space. That's cool. And you've also kind of recently, not really anymore. It's been a the you've added the vocoder. So your highest of right of awesome stuff that you do. Well, you know, it's funny. I was it's kind of like Kobe Bryant and those guys who would like they come back every year and they've added a different shot today, you know, and so I'm always looking for what can I add? And you know, I played penny whistle cool. I play when I went on tour with Chhnny holiday. They Ray Herman was the sack player and he needs to get off the tour and he called me and have to get off the tour. Can you take it over? It's rock and roll. It's really easy. It's just, you know, ten or sacks and flute. It's like yeah, it's great and right before you hang hung up, he was like, Oh, yeah, it's some harmonica to okay, by Click, like what? Hello, Hey. So you know, I went to the store and I bought a couple of harmonicas and I practiced in the car for a couple of weeks and on the plane to Paris two weeks later and on stage like three days after that. It's rock and roll Harmonica. So it's not if you put a little time into it, it's yeah, you can get by right, you know. So I saw someone play, okay, how could I? How can I say this delicately? I saw someone play vote Cooder, who was a sack player and he's not a great sax player and I want, okay, if he can play votecoder. That was kind of inspiring for me to climb into it and figure it out and and it's fun. It's another little thing in the arsenal right, yeah, and it really adds almost a cool thing, right, you know, you know, because you're you're singing lines essentially, you know, right as a vocalist now, which is a right, pretty cool. Yeah, it's been and it's really helped my playing because it helps you think as a vocalist then and you're phrasing and things like that.

So yeah, it's been fun, but that's cool. Have you gotten calls just for that yet? Now you are you known around town? Yet know, because it's coming. It's got to be coming. Hey, man, I plocad it. That's great. Anyway, bring clarinet. Well, that's interesting. I didn't really realize that clarinet was a part of the of the array, because that's hard. It's like a different yeah, whole different armature. And Yeah, I wrong about that. I clarinet's little similar to sacks. I play clarinet every day just because when I go to sacts, the sax fun feels so fantastic. You know, it's kind of lifting heavy weights and then, you know, you take the weights off and it feels great. The same thing the flute, arbisure is just a whole other animal, you know, so playing that. But for sure, you know, and it's always kind of comes in waves to like there will be a month where it's all clarinet and a month where it's all flute, and I don't know, it's like everyone talks and down goes. Okay, it's a proto sacks month go right, you know. So, and is there one that's like your voice, I mean either ten or out those acts? Yeah, you know, but that's kind of depending stylistically on the song and where it's at, because I'll go back and forth, depending on on, once again, what the song is saying emotionally and what I'm trying to put onto it. But either ten or Alto probably are my main my main axes and beyond chops. You've obviously worked a lot on your tone and I feel like that's important to you in a way that it should be to everybody. But a lot of people get lost in the notes, in the licks and the you know. But that's what's great about having you on any gigs that it's a you bring a lot of soul. Is that something you think people could work on or is that? Yeah, do you have that or you don't? Are there are other things that you do to work on that or well, you know, a million years ago I wasn't happy with my ten or sound and I thought who sound do I dig more than anyone else? And it's the time was really arnie watts. I was a big Arnie wats fan. So great thing about living in La is you can just like bug the crap out of anyone in town and and I did. I call them every day and and you know, ask them for lessons and he was like Oh, okay, come over and you know we'll talk about stuff. So I went over and I said, you know, Ernie, I don't know if it's the sacks or the my mouthpiece or my read what's wrong, but I did my sound isn't good and he's like give me your Horn and he took my horn and just played the shit out of it for the next ten minutes, just raging bebop. And he was on tour with the stones at the time, so screaming rock and roll and this fluffy sub tone and just round the GABT. My mouth is just on the floor and plays and plays and plays and plays and finally stops and he looks at me and he looks the Horn and it looks at me and he looks at the horn. He looks at me and he says it ain't the horn out. It's okay, thanks, orry, see you next week. So yeah, tones really important to me. Sound is really important and I work on it. You know, I'm doing a half hour of long tones almost every day. And what of that mean exactly? It means I'm playing one note for one minute, wow, and then I go and octave up for one minute and then the octo below for one minute. So to be flat, middle, be flat for a minute. High, be flat. Low, be flat one minute each and then be you know, and there's there's something. You get into this really kind of Zen place and you think you're warmed up and you think you're sounding good and you think you're there, but all of a sudden, about twenty minutes into it, my body just shifts. It's like there, it is, okay, good, wow. So, yeah, I mean every player I ever admired had a great sound and and identifiable sound. Right, and I think that's probably one of the biggest problems with universities at this point is they found a way to monitor ties music education and that they have hyperanalyzed notes and style and rhythms. And you know, you will come out of college being able to orchestrate a Gregorian chant and not know like what a Grigoryan chant even means or the emotional content behind it. Right, there's no emotional content being taught. There's not, you know, emotions. Two hundred and two. You know, you went to Berkeley. Right. Yeah, for a little bit, was there any emotional content that was being taught? Now, right, it's all about and I was even a songwriting major for a little bit which we would think that would be all about, right, of trying to convey an emotional idea. Of It was more about rhyming schemes and right...

...rhythms and very technical. Right, exactly. They have it broken down technically to a science. Yeah, you know. And and they missed the whole the whole point of music, which is to convey a feeling to your audience, right, conveying an emotion. So everyone comes out of university exactly half prepared because they have the chops, they have, you know, the sound, they have, the technical ability and no emotional content unless they've stumbled onto it somehow. Right, you know, if they've gone through a horrific breakup or something in college and wrote a great song because of that. You know, right. But it's not a part of study, it's not a part of music, of education, and it's it's the main reason we're playing music. Yeah, yeah, I was just thinking that as like they separate the how from the why, right, you know, right, I totally get that, and I think that's why I all together, I had like two and a half hour, two and a half hours and a half years of college between Berkeley and I went to college for a while and Denver when I got back there. But I think that's reason I struggled a little, because I sort of come from the emotional side of music, right, you know, it's so to separate that out, which is sort of in a way important, because it reminds me of like reading, like I'm it took me a long time to be a decent reader too, because I wanted to make music and I sort of have to focus just on the notes to get rid of all the emotion, because I get all distracted and you know right, I don't write it. Can't keep my eyes on the page sometimes, especially when you know a song kind of and you're trying to read it and maybe it's a different arrangement, you know right. But so to come to music without emotion and to finally get there, if that was part of the process of college, then that would probably be easier. That make any sense, I think? I'm yeah, people would be a lot further ahead. Yeah, you know, so it and that. Look, I think the question for a lot of for a lot of musicians, is are you going to be a musician or are you going to be an artist? Yeah, you know, because there are guys who play without emotion and they play incredibly clever stuff and very technical and they have really good careers playing all kinds of different, you know, TV stuff and movie stuff, and they're not an artist. You know, they're covering a lot of different territory. As an artist, your only question is what's my voice and what am I trying to say? MMM, and that's all you're working on, right, you know. So it's really difficult to be both. You know, some guys have done it. Tom Scott has done it, Michael Record did it. I mean, I'm thinking sacks players, because that's my that's my universe. But it's hard to do both of them and it's I think you you ignore and and that's not to say if you're all emotion and no chops, that's no good either. Right, you know, you're right. You can't play out of tune and out of time and go well, you know, I'm just really feeling emotional. That doesn't work either. It's just playing what I feel me right right out of tune and out of time is horrible. Right, it's not. It's not hireable, right, you know. Right, so they're both really important, but the emotional content just gets somehow. We ignored in a lot of education, which is great for me because it keeps me working right. Yeah, yes, you know, for job security for every jazzer who comes out and and and you know, they're just ready to take over with there there, you know, sheets of Scales and and licks and all. It's great, but you know, if they need an eight bar solo to be concise and and convey emotion there a lot of people get lost in that moment. Yeah, so you grew up in Los Angeles. Yeah, born and raised. That's cool. Did you? It was cool, except as a musician, I never got to be the new guy in town. Interesting, right, like every year there'd be a new crop of guys who would come out who would always get checked out because like, Oh, the new guy, they knew it, you know. Right, the flavor of the month would be, you know, the new cats coming in, and I never got to be that because I was just here, right, you know. Yeah, so there'd always be a you know, the guys from North Texas who would come out, or Eastman or Berkeley or you know just from an area, like, you know, the Houston sacks players, right, Everett harp and Kirk whalem and all those guys who had a certain sound coming out of there, right. You know, it was cool when they would hit towns because they would get that initial kind of Oh, new guy in town, let's check them out. Yeah, and I was just always here's yeah, Oh, yeah, George O camen are. That's interesting. Well, I had a conversation with I can't remember who it was, it was years and years ago when I first came here, and he was like, well, sometimes it's cool to be the out of Town Guy Because you've...

...done all your sucking somewhere else, right, and by the time you get here you're a little more prepared ared. You know, there's always a catch up, I think because we're La's and unless he came from New York, maybe, but la is like an intense place. You you know, it's hard to show up your burning like everyone else. But I asked Jerry Vivino, when sex player for the cone and show, when he moved out. I was like, all right, what's a difference between New York and La? He's like in New York you have players that are just as good as they are here in la, but in La you can go twenty deep in a chair. Yeah, and the twenty guy is still killing, you know, and you don't quite have that depth he felt in New York. Interesting, you know. Yeah, I don't feel like you probably did a lot of sucking, but like, you know. But it is a kind of town, though. If you show up on a GIG and you you don't kill it, you can get a reputation pretty quick. You know, if you're a young guy, obviously there's well, he's he's still coming up, back, back in Mard Day. I mean the cool thing about growing up in the San Fernando Valley when I was here and Carson was in charge of the tonight shoe and they had the tonight show band. So Pete Chrisley lived out here and you know, the whole band was in the neighborhood. Wow, and being a professional musician wasn't some weird esoteric concept. It's what everyone did. You know, Detroit they make cars and Pittsburgh they pull steel and and here we make music. Yeah, you know on TV and film it. It's an industry town. MMM. So I grew up going okay, this is what it takes to be professional and this is what's expected and these are the marks you have to hit. You know, when I was in school. They've causes in school at the same time and Matt Cat and Goob was in school at the same time, Ted Nashers in school. You know, all these amazing sacks players who have all gone different ways. You know, Matt became the Director of the honolu symphony, and Dave Cos of course with his Solo career, and Ted Nash Plays in the Candy Center Jazz Orchestra. So you grew up out here and was like, Oh, music is a profession, you know. And when I traveled and people be like what do you do? I'm musician, they'd be like what, what do you do during the week? Now that's it. It's yeah, you know, and that's when I realized for other people it was a really strange concept to be a musician. So the advantage to growing up here was you just saw it as a profession and attacked it as such. Yeah, that's one of the reason I came out here. I came out to visit and I was like, guys that I do what I do in Denver have houses and Nice cars and families, you know, like they get paid real money. You know, like like I need to be here, no, right that's pretty cool, right. So, but it's weird for me. It's hard for me to relate because I grew up in Broomfield Colorado, like beautiful place, but we're small and in the middle of the country and and my whole goal was just to get out of Broomfield Colorado, and and the idea of living your whole life in your town, it's an odd concept to me. You know, where, did you ever want to like leave La just for the sake of being somewhere else or is? Yeah, I've been a great place the whole time. And Yeah, it's been a great place, except it sucks half the time. You know. I mean we, Linda and I, talked about if we were going to move. You know. Well, it's a great concept, but where? And what's going to check all the boxes? Right? That la checks hmm, you know, I mean where else you're going to get earthquakes and fires and traffic, traffic, really expensive parking tickets. Yeah, so, you know, move. That's ridiculous. Yeah, you know. Musically, and once again, back we were talking about sucking on gigs and back in the day you could suck on a Gig and the thirteen people at that gig would go. Why that guy sucked. You know. Now their live streaming the show as it's happening. Yeah, and everyone sees the show immediately, right, you know wherever you are. So there's a lot I think there's a lot more pressure on young musicians now with having their stuff out there immediately. They don't get to be in some small club and SOC or experiment or try stuff, and that, you know, that's the other thing. The other reason why it's important for me still to just play music at the end of the day and just have fun with it is that's the time I get to experiment, because you can't really experiment anymore when you're out on a GIG. Yeah, yeah, that's changed a lot. And plus like sometimes, you know, we all have those weeks where we got to take a gig that maybe I don't want people knowing that I'm playing this gig or maybe I don't want people to see me on this particular band, but you know, it pays money and and here I am...

...and now it's it can be right up there on the Internet and forever. Right. It's so funny you should say that because in March I was booked to play with a singer who's not a fantastic singer, and everything was just starting to close down because of Covid so gigs were dropping off and her gig was like the only one that was still booked and I was like, oh Lord please, if that Gig doesn't cancel, then everyone's going to come to this gig because it's the only one happening. And then, thankfully, it canceled them. Oh, thank the Lord. Man, I hear you. It's a drag. You gotta Choose Your Gigs wisely. Yeah, you kind of do. Yeah, so then you, I read in your by then you move to Hollywood. Right, and did that. So you grew up in the valley, grew up in the valley, moved to Hollywood, and mainly because back then the first person saxophone especially, was like an a lastminute addition for most jingles or whatever. This is not working, let's add sacks. Who can we get and which meant who can get here the fastest, right, you know. So Hollywood back in the day was a great advantage because I was on Gour above beach, which so I was right down the street, MMM, you know, and most of the studios and I can get there quickly. So that worked for a long time. Yeah, you know. And now now it's just the complete opposite because with home recording, no one has to be anywhere, right, you know. Yeah, everyone can just send you tracks and you can lay it down and send it back out. So, but back in the day, being in Hollywood was important because you had to get to the you had to be available to get to the session quickly. Yeah, if it especially being a young guy coming up right, all the established guys were always going to get the calls and the first calls. But, you know, lastminute editions, if you were there and get down quick you might get a foot in the door. MMM. So, yeah, that worked out. And then I blew back out to the valley and yeah, I I when I first moved here I lived in Pasadena because my only friend out here is like, yeah, I live in Basztan's great and it is kind of cool. It's outside of town a little bit, you know, traffic wise. I mean this was twenty years ago, so traffic wasn't quite as bad. It's still horrible, but and then they raise the rent like ridiculous. So we were like okay, we got to move, let's get so I went to North Hollywood. We found this awesome apartment, affordable, two bedroom to bath, you know, and and then all of a sudden I'm like all my neighbors are all these guys that I had been working with, you know, in the two and a half years that I'd lived in Pasadene. I'm like, Oh, I finally, Oh, this is where I'm supposed to live. Right, Oh, the valley is where the musicians are supposed to live, you know, like right is where you get more for your money and like everyone us here and the rehearsal spaces are here and right. So I love the valley, honestly. And and now with recording, do the home recording again, it's like the advantage is, like anyone in the world can get a hold of you and you can light tracks for anyone in the world. So I'm doing my room is set up. I can do horn sections at my house. Yeah, and I've done them for Korean artists and Japanese artists and and, you know, all over the world. The disadvantage to that is now everyone in town can reach out all over the world to other musicians. Yeah, so, you know, I was talking earlier, like I played penny whistle. So if they need a quick little penny whistle Phil, okay, cool, I can do that. Now. They literally call the bar and Dublin and it's like Hey, who's your penny whistle player? Wow, and whoever it is has a home recording studio in Dublin and he plays the crap out of the penny whistle and has since he was six years old. Right exactly. That's lays the solo and sends it back. Wow. Yeah. So what what kind of recordings set up? Are you like a pro tool, pro tools guy? Now I'm logic, logic. Yeah, it's because I'm an apple guy and and it is set up and I think the architecture for that apple uses with logic is it's a really good sounding program yeah, and most of the stuff that I'm doing is I'm laying my tracks, be it be a solo sacks or sack lords section or in section, and I'm sending it out and they're mixing somewhere else. Right. So all I'm trying to do is get it recorded hot and clean. HMM. That's it. No tricks. No, I don't compress anything. I'm recording. It's just here's here's the bare knuckled signal. Do with it what you will, right, have your way with it. And do you go through a preamp? I use still. I have the bright April leave preamps. I have four channels of that. Great. But I've got the latest focus rite converters and I a bed and and honestly, the latest focus rite converter sound great by themselves and a little arrier and better than using the preamps. So right now I'm not using the PREAMPS and you know, I've a bed back and forth and and the...

...technology is gotten pretty ridiculous at this point. Yeah, you know. So I just go straight into the you know, into the converter and in the computer and off we go. That's awesome. I mean it's a lot cheaper too. It is because of those you know, bred out. If you're trying to cover multiple channels, that gets pretty exactly you know, like rush Miller has his. He calls it a home studio, but it's ridiculous set up. Yeah, and he records fourteen tracks of drums, you know, to overheads and then two overheads further back in the room and over the snare and under the snare and Hatton. And you know right, and I was in casual conversation with a guy who had an eight pack of need preamps he was selling and I called Russ and he's like, I'm on my way, and gave the guy cash for it. You know, trying to put what you so I you know, for me it's just I need for clean channels, right, because I'll do up to a four horn section and can stack and double and do whatever. Anything else, go somewhere else. MMM, you know. But but what I tell clients is I have the same quality that they have a capital records. I have that, the same computers, the same preamps, the same mic selection. You know the differences. I have four channels and capital has a hundred and twenty eight, right, you know. Yeah, so if you need more than four, then go somewhere else, right, but I'll cover you with the highest quality out there. HMM, you know, for what I do, right, I'll keep that in mind. I'll put you on the list. Please do and he's are going to afford to not use your computer? Sound a sample? Well, that you know, for for Horn players that has been an interesting educational aspect, is showing producers and writers what's possible with the horn section, because all that there are a lot of guys who are doing big music projects and aren't particularly musically educated. Yeah, and all they know from horns is whatever the sample pack in their computer plays, right, you know. So all they know is that horns can stab in unison. PAPAPA, Papa, right, that's all it. Right, you know. So I find that that like half of our session these days are going. Well, we can, you know, we can crescendo into a note, we can crissando out that, we can fall off it, we can scoop, I've been doing you know, there's all these options, let let alone the arranging of harmony and things like that. Right, but there's a lot of there's a lot of educating that's going on these days for producers, and you know, most guys are cool and and open to it because they don't know and they want to know right possible. Yeah, so, you know. But it used to be you'd go in and like here are the horn parts, and play exactly what I have written, because this is exactly what I want. Yeah, you know, I've done films now where as a horn section, we've gone in and they've had no music on the stands. Wow, and they're like well, play something here and play something here. Well, that's interesting because earlier when we were talking about emotion versus you know, a lot of times the job of the Horn player is just that here, read the chart and get it right, right, and everything's on there. Don't have to you don't have to be emotional, you know, just do what I tell you to do. And I was going to bring up that. It's it feels different for a guitar player because a lot of times, or a Bass player even as a lot of times it's like, well, here's the cord chart, let's come up with a bass line. Right, you know it's not as notated, but horns, you for one, you've usually got three, four, five, six people. So right, you got to be a little more organized, right, but apparently that's changing. So that that's interesting. I wonder whether that will do to upcoming horn players in general if that's what you're expected to go into now you're going to be a person that needs to provide music as well as right, you know, the instrument. What I found is that horn section of these days I find guys are coming up as sections that are much quicker at coming up with parts as a section, like young kids now are really good at between them. It's like, Oh, we can play this, this and this on the song. Bam. You know. So there's this new skill set that's coming up for young horn sections and giving a producer, you know, because they go in, the producer has a loop and a bassline and play something on this right, you know. Yeah, wow, that's that's good, probably as long as you still have all the education and skills to do the other, I guess. Yeah, the the problem is the two different things. I don't know. Well, you're cutting, like, okay, you're not paying for arranger, you're not paying for a copyist. Yes, you know, there's a whole chain of people that used to be involved in that process. Yeah, that are...

...that's not there. So and you're not. The Horn section is not getting paid anymore money. We're not getting arrangers fee or copying fee. But it's kind of the New Paradigm. That's where we are now. Yeah, so dig in or get out right. I know. I mean it's not much different. For Basse, most guitar players can do it. Not a keyboard players can do it. You know, don't need me, you know, I'll send you tracks, I'll give you a deal. Right, that's good. I got a bass where I can do it right and and not to mention a lot of the music, especially pop music, doesn't require bass anymore and and if it does, it's pretty simple stuff. We're not in an era of you know, Chicago and led Zeppelin, there anything that requires like not to those recession guys. But but I think, I think it's coming back and around. Honestly, I hope so. The latest stuff like, you know, Jacob Collier and right, you know, guys like that, or starting to put out some really complex pop songs. So I think, you know, I think it really the pendulum swings back and forth and and I think it's coming back where I hear a lot of kind of total influenced, very cool, you know sort of stuff. So I hope it's going back that way. Me Too. Yeah, because I was thinking as I was kind of listening to you all day, and sorry, searching, sorry that I was just thinking about how when I was, you know, I pretty much grew up in the s and s like in the s there was a Singable sack solo right on pretty much every pop tune right and then by the time you get sort of to the S it's not there. It's move right. Now, if you if you hear Sax, that's Jazz Right, you know, and now it doesn't even now, if there's a sax in a in a dance tune or something, it's a sample of some James Brown thing that write happens in a weird way that's bare even musical. Yeah, I would like to thank composers in the S for screwing sax players over. Oh, interesting. Well, they got lazy, you know. They would compose, you know, okay, here you have this movie and so you're composing and you're writing and you're arranging for this and here's a car chase and and here's a love scene. Sax Solo, MMM. And they just got lazy and that became their go to move right, you know, the moment the lips are headed towards each other, Q, The sack Solo, you know, and everyone got burnt on that right. So I got to the point of like, okay, we don't want to hear Sax Solo ever again, and that, you know. So it really just like push the whole thing out right, you know. And unless they want specifically like Kenny g kind of thing or you know, I get called for a New York sounding, you know, bebop Solo, jazz solow, something like that, right, you know, very stylistically specific. But yeah, everyone got really burnt on. That's interesting. I never thought about that yet. So it was like they called it like type casting. Right, SAX is only for love songs now, right, yeah, yeah, HMM. Well, and you've probably felt that over the years. As far as business, I don't know. Oh sure. And you know, like I talked about the pendulum going back and forth. So when Kenny G was really popular and hitting it, then suddenly everyone wanted to Prano Sax on everything, and I wrote that and you know, and then when Brian Sutcher was hitting real big, suddenly jump swing was was in and and horn sections came back. We want to jump swing and stuff like that. So, you know, depending on where the Zeit geist is and what's popular, people will jump on that and there's a lot of trickle down work that will come because of that, right, you know. So that's why, when people were backing on Kenny G and Oh Kenny G sucks, I'm like, dude, first of all he's a great player and if you think he sucks. You've never really listened to him, right, you've never heard him live. But second all, as a professional sacks player, the trickle down work I got from Kenny sustain me for like a decade, right, you know, yeah, I got no problem with a famous Sax player. All right, we were playing for a couple of years together in a band. It's her casual band, a wedding band, and I remember coming up to you one day and being like, dude, I think, I think I'm up for this really good Gig. I can't I'm not really telling anybody, but I think I might, I might get this quite Yoakam Gig, to which he replied, okay, dude, don't tell anybody, but I think I got the Spill Collins here and I'm like, why do you always have to one up? Not that I don't love playing, which I yoga, but Bill Colle it's is like the guy that I always used as the dream Gig, but with you know, like if I miss a phone call, like Oh man, what if it was full...

...call? It's like since like I was eighteen, you know what I mean. So you got the GIG and you you. I mean, he's he's, he's not touring it. Well, no one's touring right now, but right he did. We did three years or the not dead yet tour. Very cool, and Harry Kim called me and he said Joe Albright has decided not to go back out on tour as Phil Sacks player and would you like to do it? And after I stopped sobbing, I would yes, please, you know. And that was that was in December and rehearsals weren't going to start until April. But the next day I was at his house saying give me the music. We've got much. Yeah, great, give me the music, and I followed him around his house and made him have music. Can give it to me. For a Horn player it's a dream gig. Yeah, you know the parts that Harry has written and arranged for Phil and other guys, Tom, Tom and Mary can, fatulous trumpet player, Fabulous Probably Player, the top nudes and La, yeah, and the leader of the vine street horns, which has been fills horn section for for thirty five years. So I got the parts from Harry because they're very Harry, as a trump of player, writes very explosive, exciting horn parts and as a sacks player I had to get my tonguing and phrasing up to speed. So I shed that for a couple months on my own. Then we did ten rehearsals as a horn section before we had the first band rehearsal. Wow, so you know because Harry wanted to go in spanking. Yeah, you know, no, perfect. You know. Anyone who thinks you're going to go into a rehearsal and learn the music there you are sadly mistaken. Right. You know, you you get to rehearsal, there they're worried about staging and lighting and a million of the things having nothing to do with the music. Right, the music's a foregone conclusion that you'll know that when you step in there the first day. So we did. We did ten rehearsals as a section and then flew to Miami and started rehearsals and it was just I I hesitate to talk about how great the it was because it's just phenomenal and I just sent would sound like a complete dirt bag. You know, it's something you wish that every musician who's spent hours and hours and years and years working on their craft could get that kind of an opportunity to be part of that organization that everyone, everyone in that organization, whether it was lights or sound or production or catering, whoever it was wardrobe, they took such pride and what they did and wanted just to kill their gig right. I remember the first week of rehearsals I ran into least Leland Square playing based on the GIG and had been for thirty five years, and I was about the third day of rehearsal and we were done for the day and and I said, you know, hey, what are you doing? And I maybe go and grab some dinner and he's like, Oh, I'm staying in and I'm shedding my parts all night because we've changed keys on a couple things and I'm not comfortable with it. I'm like, Oh damn. You know, wow, everyone just took such pride musically in the gag and what they were doing, and Phil was just fantastic to work for. Yeah, just great, and him being a extremely skilled musician. I mean he was he involved a lot, or did he just sort of does? Is there a musical director who kind of runs into it? Brad Cole is is the musical director, but Phil is the musical director. Okay, you know, so brad is facilitating what's going on rehearsal, and let's go over this part, let's check this out. But Phil here's everything. And Phil is one of the few guys I've run into, maybe the only guy who has perfect time hm, which I had never experienced before. But if he wanted something at a hundred beats per minute and it was a hundred and one, he knew it and felt it interesting because and he was singing, his phrasing was off and and his son Nicholas, was playing drums. Did a fantastic job. But started rehearsals at sixteen and yeah, ridiculous, wow, you know, and and came in knowing all the parts and having everything nailed. So, but Phil was as long as you were given Phil what he needed and what it should be, great. Yeah, no problems when and most artists have been like that that I worked for. And people don't realize the pressure that they're under, you know, because if something is wrong with anything in the production, whit sound music, they blame the artist. It's the artist fault. Now that...

...her show sucked, right, he's you know. Yeah, so phil was great. I had a couple Solos in the show and he really didn't say anything for the first week of rehearsals and after about a week I just couldn't take it anymore and I walked up to when I was like, Phil just want to know if you wanted to play anything different, do anything different, you know, let me know and just want to get your general take on when I'm playing. And you looked at me said I've hated everything you've done so far. Ha, ha ha. All right, we're going to get along. Just Ha. That's really funny. But you know, it was just one piece of ridiculousness on this Gig. Is We were doing one more night, which is a big sax feature at the end of the song, and we were hearst it in Miami. Then we flew to London where they actually had the stage set up and the big sound stage and was our first time seeing all the lights and and everything. And of course you walked in there and tear it up just at the beauty and majesty of it all. But we're we're getting ready to rehearse one more night and then the stage mayor said, okay, there's a little x on the floor. He's like, okay, and your solo hit that axe. On your first note. Okay, Great. So they're doing one more night and then I casually stroll out and I hit my axe and as my solos about to start, seven spot lights all hit me on that axe and I just started laughing. It was the most ridiculous, sublime. Wow, oh, that's what this Gig is, you know. And once again the why guys were like jazz that they could make something like that happen. Right. They're like, yeah, watch, we swirl the lights here and then Bam we hit at this point and crazy. Great guys, but phenomenal gig. He was beautiful and so sad it's not happening. Yeah, you think it's gone permanently? or well, it is. He's going back out with genesis. Yes, the House I thought, yeah, he's doing genesis again, which has been which has been his whole life. Has Bounced back and forth between his Solo GIG and Genesis. Right, so every time he's done a Solo Gigi's followed it with with genesis and back and forth. So Genesis for the end. You know, we ran for three years. So you can see what we see genesis going for for three years, right. Would he do anything after that? I sure as hell. Hope so. Yeah, but who knows. We'll see. So what horns did you play? Did you have more than one or it was all? It was ninety percent alto. Wow, there's all alto sacks. That's cool. When I think one song on tenor and that was it. Yeah, and did it's it was memorized. Yeah, it's not a reading GIG. New and is that something that you do a lot? Is that comfortable? Is it because I know yours, huck, you're like a phenomenal reader. Thank you. I suck at memorizing stuff. Interesting and not so much now. Yeah, yeah, it was a trial by fire and and that was one of the and that was another reason why I bothered Harry in December for a GIG that was rehearsing in April, right, because I knew I was going to need that time to internalize parts right. And you know, there's a couple of songs that have tremendous horn openings and and I shed and got down memorized and perfect and we went into rehearsal and feels like it's too high. Let's drop that a half step. You're like no, can you just move your Kepo down to transpose the keyboard in the same and the same thing happened at the grammy's when we were doing we were doing the a tribute to Lionel Ritchie and so they were doing a big star catvalcade where everyone came in and saying Lionel Richie Song. Then he comes up and sings all night long for the last song. So we're up there rehearsing as a section and we're just jazz to play all night long because another iconic horn line. Right. So he gets up there and we're just sticking it that. That didn't did that, that, but then den't do bad, but damn it, don't Dad. And you know, just all proud of ourselves and we get done in Lyons. Like you know, my voice a little tired today. Can can we lower that a half step? And they count...

...of the song. The word's action went. Dadda did it it at Mumble, mumble, mumble. But yeah, I memorizing is not one of my strongest suits, so it's not my have to really put time in on just repetition and a section at a time. Yeah, you know, as a Bass player I have a guitar attack, like how do the tech thing work? For a Horn player, do you have a tech to someone handle your horns or is that always? Well, I guess with only two horns on the GIG it's not right involved. But I had I had a tech when I was on tour Johnny holiday, and I would go from tendor to Harmonica. I would have a tech kind of handoff different instruments and microphones to me, because I had a bullet mic course, for the harmonica and then a clip on for the sacks and right. So they helped me with that, but otherwise now you're pretty much on your own. And you know the end of film gigs. We would allot of these stadium gigs. We would do runners up the back, you know, hit the last note, Bam into the van and out right. So we had this kind of choreograph dance we did as a horn section. When we would get off stage, we had our case, our flight case, and we would all pack our stuff up and get it in the case and shut and locked and ready to go clear, you know, right before the last song was done, because it was kind of on us to do that. Yeah, so we got really good at you know, the Swiss army of like you get this and you lift that shelf and then we'll put that in first, and and then it's pitch like, I can't see flash my friends. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I understand. We also have wardrobe to I don't know if you guys. So it was it's always like get out of your clothes, fash you can and get in a van, you know. Right. Yeah, we actually would wear our clothes. If it was a runner, we would just wear them back to the hotel and they would pick them all up at the hotel. Yeah, yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, it was so good. Runners are great. He was this covid things. I'm going to hire one just for the house and have a runner around all the time. And it's a he has a pretty large catalog. Was the setlist pretty locked in or very locked in? Okay, cool, yeah, WHO's a show? Yeah, cool. And you know, a lot of that had to do with lighting and recues and staging and and everything that they had going on. There were a couple of songs that he would flip flop in the middle of the show. Could be one or the other, but everything else was locked in. Yeah, and he would generally change a couple of songs from leg to leg so on. We do with the Europe leg and then go, say, do Australia, New Zealand. He would change up a couple of songs, but basically it was pretty locked. Yeah, and I was what, I watched something on Youtube and I don't know if it was the beginning of the show, but did he open with against all odds? Yeah, I just thought that was so cool open with a ballad. Yeah, I don't know, I mean he yeah, he's a hero, so I'm yeah, the stage, the stage would go dark and he would just walk out and sit down que the piano and start singing. It was cool. It was such a ball or move. And you're playing stadiums, yeah, or arena's and yeah, it's just cool. Yeah, yeah, so awesome. And there'd be a scram up in front of the band on that song, so you would just be him, MMM, you know, on this like a single spotlight for that song. Yeah, and then the scram would drop for the second song and then the horns would come out for the third song and it was really yeah, you know, he had as a kid. He was he was doing shows theater. I don't I was going to say Broadway, but it's not broad away in London, whatever the right equivalent is. Right. He was in Oliver as a kid and he has a very good theatrical mind for putting together a show and you know what needs to hit where and the overall arch of the show, putting it together musically. Yeah, that's cool, great at that. Yeah, I saw I'm live and ninety four or five just blew my mind. He ended with take me home, Uh Huh. I don't know if he still does that. I always but he has this massive set, right and and and it was around the time, in fact, I bought the rehearsally hit a video that you pay. He was big into the homeless, you know, and like he had a big charity thing for the homeless. So I bought the video to support and it's the whole video of documentary of his rehearsal leading up to the tour. Really interesting, really cool. Nathan East on it. And the cool thing was as a massive sets, huge lit up, as the song is vamping out, each member of the band leaves. Still it's just him, right, and part of the set is the shack because it's like a homeless part of the set, you know, right, and he wanders up to the...

...shack and eventually leaves out the door and on the last note, and then he just sticks his arm back out and pulls the porch light and the whole set goes down. Oh, nothing, so cool because the thing is still completely lit. You know, it was an outdoor shed, you know, big, big thing, right, and I just I just love that stuff. But that shows that he's going, you know, it's kind of theatrical kind of thing. Yeah, it's a flair for that. At the same time, he you know, it was explained to us. It's like it's a show and I want it. Don't want there to be great energy and and put it out there, but I don't want it to be like a Vegas Lounge Act. MMM. He was also sensitive to it being too kitchy or too cute or to you know right. So you know, there was always just bounce or trying to strike between. Let's go out and have fun, but let's not be idiots, right. Yeah, and as a horn section, like how much of the show did you play? Because not every song? That's the one thing I'm always envious of, right, of certain players, not just horn players, but you're as a base player. I'm pretty much out for everything, the whole thing. Yeah, he would do thirty songs and we would play on twelve of them. Okay, cool, so almost half. And as a sort of inherently lazy person, that that seems very attractive to me too. Yeah, but did you find yourself wanting to be out there more all the time? Yeah, although, especially if the band is great and you're having fun and it's all right, like, you know, want to be sitting around right, right, yeah, you know, texting people. What are you doing? Just backstage? Oh, Hey, hang on, we have to go on. Okay, that one one. I'll be back in three minutes. Well, it sounded what I heard on I didn't get see it live, obviously, but man, the horns are just smoking. Thanks so great. Thanks. It was. It was incredibly fun. And Michelle, the front of House mixer, mix the horns really hot. Yeah, in the house, I mean it's it's a horns, it's phil horns and the rest of the band. Yeah, yeah, and and his kid. Yeah, that would make sense, and Nicholas. Yeah, but that was, you know, that was the way Harry. Harry wrote parts and Phil Wanted Parts to make a statement, like, not background stuff, right, you know, Harry and I. We've seen. We were in Paris and someone invited us to a very famous singer show and the show was phenomenal, incredible show. I'll tell you who it was off air. But the horn parts were just so boring, you know, whole notes and you just felt so bad for the guys because they had nothing to play. All my head, you know, and Phil's book is not that way, right, but it also and brought that added dimension of pressure and that you'd listen to playback and you're like, Oh damn, not only can I hear the horns, I hear the sacks very clearly. Yeah, yes, exactly, okay, let's yeah point here. Yeah, you know, and there was points we talked about memorizing the show. So Louis Bonie was a trombone player and it was both his and I first tour with Phil, and Harry Cam and Dan Fer narrow have toured with Phil forever. So they know the show, they have the parts. They play phenomenal. But we would be getting kind of visual cues from from Harry and Dan when they're picking up the horns like okay, we play now, you know, and then probably three months into it when they knew that we had the show memorize. Then they started to screw with us and they would start picking the horns up and just just seeing if we would take the bait. And if you know, if you were out in the field with butterflies and daisy is not paying attention, I'll see you pick up the horn. Bap Dog, damn it. Oh Man, well, at least it's just a stadium full of people. Yeah, no pressure. Do you enjoy the travel? And I know you're pretty that's where you guy and a touring guy. Yeah, well, you know I mean. I mean, do you enjoy the road? How about that? Um, yeah, you know, I think everyone has that same answer. There there are aspects about it that are incredible and they're things about it that just suck. Yeah, you know, and for me, I'm out there to do a job. So I know some guys hit a new town and go exploring immediately. Had Right for the museum or the town center or the nightclub or whatever they do. Right, I'm getting a bowl of Spaghetti, I'm in my room, I'm watching Netflix and that's it. I got to show to do tomorrow. God You don't bug me. Yeah, right, I mean, I really paced myself on the road. But yeah, I mean the energy of being on the road and and getting that on just about any Gagis is so great that I enjoyed that aspect of it. I enjoy the team aspect of everyone working together. Yeah, you...

...know, you go into that stadium at six in the morning and it's just a bare floor, there's nothing there, and the thing that they create is incredible, you know, as a team. So being part of that team was is really special. So, yeah, I enjoy that. And and now it's kind of fun because I've kind of been to enough places, often enough where I have friends and different places. Nice to get back and see them and, yeah, touch base again. Or, do you know, go do clinics again, you know, in London or Germany or Austria, and you know, see those people again and guys who were at my clinics years ago we're now working professionals and you know, yeah, it's fun to see. Yeah, and how many shows a week does he do? I know, vocalist, it's usually yeah, spread out. He was like, if I'm going out, we're going to work, so it would you. I mean the crew got killed, God bless them. Ya really got hammered, but we would usually do two on, one off, steady throughout the whole run. Yeah, you know. So no weekends when you yeah, know, you know, Johnny Holiday. There'd be like ten days off, two weeks off. Yeah, you know. And at the time we were based in Paris and it's like we fantastic, yeah, man, but but now fil gets a he's like, if we're going out, we're going out and working. Yeah, so, which is great too. Yeah, yeah, definitely, absolutely. Just. Yeah, and if, especially if you're not a guy who gets out and searches around town and explorers. Yeah, sometimes I feel like it's weird, like we with Keiko on two as to go to Eastern Europe all the time, like Kiev, and we do always do an orchestra show there's would be there for a week or whatever, and each your I'd go back, I'd be like it's just weird to me that I know my way around this foreign town, right, you know, or Tokyo, you know, we're like, how is it that I get here and I'm familiar? Right, you get home and you forget about those things and this is your world and then you end up in talking on like I know exactly where it go right now. This is just right. You know, this isn't the little place to hit exactly. Yeah, and I can't wait to get back to the yeah, the Roman spot man. So there are a lot of us out of work right now, waiting to get back to play and shows and touring, and I know I've had to do whatever I can do to take my mind off the situation from time to time, and one of the ways to pass the time is to catch up on some books you've missed. But if you're like me and you don't love to read, there's another way you can consume audiblecom has thousands of titles to choose from, including audio books about music production, songwriting, the music business, music theory, instructional audio books and biographies of Your Favorite Musical Heroes. But besides audio books, you can also listen to podcasts, theatrical performances, a list comedy and exclusive audio originals you won't find anywhere else. Right now, you can get a free thirty day trial if you visit audible trialcom dive, Bar Rock Star. That's audible trialcom dive, Bar Rock Star, and you can catch up on your audio reading. I'd like to take a second to thank you for listening to the dive Bar Rockstar podcast. As a new podcast, getting the word out as a vital part of what it takes to keep the show on the road, or off the road, as the current case. Maybe if you would like to support the podcast, all you got to do is subscribe wherever you listen and if you have an extra minute or two, please leave a review. You can also share and follow the podcast on your social media APPS. Okay, enough begging. I hope you're having fun and once again, thank you for listening. I mentioned your phenomenal reader and I think that that's for a horn player, it's it's kind of your bread and butter. Used to be. It's not as much anymore because, once again, like we're saying, producers aren't writing horn parts as much. Got You so more of the time now, I tell you about half and half. I go in and there's printed out parts and this is exactly what we want, and the other half is like, I need something exciting here, I need something punchy here. You know or will get you know they'll be they'll be a part that's kind of lame and we're like, you know, you're kind of walking on edge shelves and like. So we always put things in question form. Right. Are you sure you want us to play it this way? All right, would you like us to work on this articulation, because you're not sure how married they are to the part or right, if the producer thinks it's just a genius part that he's come up with? Yeah, you know, just printed out the thing from this legic right from the...

...miniscore, and it's ridiculous to look at. But yeah, for a lot of years, reading is and still at you know, for movie dates and anything like rather is really important. And you into cal State Northridge. Yeah, two years, which weird, like it's like this unknown I hear about so many players are I see some many great players still coming out of that school and somebody great players went there. Yet outside of La I don't think people know about that school. Well, once again, it's kind of like you're getting it straight from the source. Yeah, because it's in the valley. You're surrounded by players who are working full time. Yeah, you know. So it's it's not known as like an artistic school, like you're coming out of Berkeley as a blowing player with a voice and something to say. You know you're coming out everybody, well, it's still just a school. Yeah, but you know, you come out of CAL state northwarde. You're ready to work. Yeah, yeah, how good we're reading skills when you got out of college versus after that. You know, as much as I sucked at memorizing, I was really good at reading and and I realized that this the key to sight reading is never sight read. Never be playing it as you're looking at it for the first time. Interesting. There's always time to look at music ahead of time. So if you go, if you do a film date, and you know the film date typically runs ten to one MM, ten am to one PM, and then two hundred and twenty five visits a double. So if it's a ten am in an atpiece orchestra, all at pieces are in their chairs at nine am ready to go and every one of them is looking through the book. Everyone is like, what are we got today? What are we looking at? And if there's anything in their book that's difficult, they're shed that over that hour. They're shed that part. MMM. So when the baton drops at ten, their sight reading right, but everyone's already put an hour looking at the parts. That's how interesting, you know, and it makes total sense and it's happening to be in sessions as well. But I think the most recent reading I've been doing, you know, was in that wedding band that I mentioned earlier, impulse. We had other people, you know, that playing that man as well, where the reading is like intense and it's sometimes it's like here's the chart while you're playing the other song. So there's no time to even write. No, I'm not always. Sometimes you're trying to go over it ahead of time. But so at my best I could, I could read eight bars ahead of where I was playing. So even if you have no time to look at the chart when they count it off, I'm looking ahead right, I'm looking down so right. So once again you're never being surprised by anything as you're playing it in that moment I'm glancing ahead and go, Oh, here's a trouble. Oh, here's a key change. Okay, get ready for that. Here's a you know right, here's a quick lick. So yeah, the key to sit reading is never sit read. Ever, that's amazing because I always always think about like it's so hard to practice site reading because you need that intensity of being on stage to do it right. But I like your way better because I you know, most of us try their hardest. I guess I've again. It's just more the casual scene, and I mean even on something like you've done the Academy Awards. Not the Academy Awards, I've done the grammys and I've done the emmy's and the bet awards and and even on those awards, those as a time to rehearse and stuff and see the charts are. Yes, cool, yeah, there is. And but once again, anytime you're tossed into a situation where you're supposed to sit read, look at it ahead of time. Yeah, and and work on your chop so you can read at least two bars ahead. Two bars ahead is doable for everyone, right. And but you know, foreign a, you're really get in a good lay of the land. What's coming up? MMM. So nothing surprises you. Well, you know, my thing is always practice at home like you're doing a huge show or you doing a big recording session. Try to put that kind of pressure on yourself to play as precise as you can, as in tune as you can, as in time as you can, and when you go out and perform, try and perform like you're at home. Try and be relaxed. Wow, that is great advice. I'M gonna have to work on that. Yeah, me too, because I'm definitely the opposite. Not Always. I'm pretty much putting pressure on myself at every moment of my life actually, but that's what we do. Yeah, but it's a hard game. It's really interesting for, you know, some people that aren't in it. When you look at a band of musicians, you know they're having so much fun and everything is so this is upmost be the greatest life in the world, in the world, you know. But sometimes you're on stage just being like, don't fuck up and you know that certain players that you're with are going to be on your...

...ass if you do. And you know and there is this certain like, especially when the more jazzier things you know some people wouldn't once in a while I say a comment and my wife says, don't be mean, and I think to myself, you don't even know what mean is. You've never been on stage with this guy or that guy or you know, like the pressure that can come up. And and so how do you maintain that kind of thing in those I'm sure you've been in these situations, or maybe not, maybe you're well. I mean, first of all, I'm not, I'm not really a jazzer the way those guys are. Yeah, where they're out doing it every night, and that, you know, I never worked on the lexicon the way those guys have. For me, improvising was something that I truly wanted to be an original creation, that I came up with and worked on stuff on my own, and I didn't memorize a ton of Brecker Solos and a ton of you know, Hank Mobili and cold rane and all that. I studied them and listen to them and and really, you know, got into what they were doing, but not to what the level of jazzer would do. So, you know, I'm really not in that scene, right you know. And once again, jazzers keep me working. And that, you know, they show up to a Gig that pays great and they bitch that the music isn't cool, and they show up to a jazz gig and they bitch that the money isn't great, right you know. Yeah, it's just they live this negative, you know, dark place and it's like I don't want to be there. Yeah, for sure, you know, and it's not to say we don't get critical on ourselves or on other players, but what I found is that when we have players that we don't dig, the tip off is those are the guys that you're most polite to. HMM, right, yes, exactly, right, right, yeah, you know, it's like, yeah, Nice, meeting a man, okay, good, yeah, good playing with you, you know, and the guys that you dig you're just slicing constantly. Yeah, you know your friend, you're like, Dude, what the hell was that you were trying to do there? And right now you sucking. Yeah, you know, you dig in the guys you really respect and guys you just aren't cutting it. You're just very polite to and yeah, inside you're going to Oh, that's called was wrong and right, and we'll make that again. You're getting the number out of your phone right, delete. Well, you know, and that's for me because I came up. I ended up being a contractor around town, right, and mainly for the casinos, which I just kind of fell into. And and you know, for both of our careers, we have fallen into situations that we've taken because it was the opportunity that was afforded us in that moment. And right, you know, you were a smooth jazz bass player and sure I'll be smooth jazz, and then you were a country bass player and know, yeah, I'll be yeah, yeah, so the opportunity came up for me to contract, and contracting is the easiest gig on the planet because you're calling musicians and you're offering them work and hopefully paying them a decent wage. And Right, nothing easier, you know, and and as a contractor I can, I can say that what I'm looking for in a musician is I never want to have to think about you ever. Right, you know, the most successful guys are the guys I don't have to think about at all. Right, I know, and you know, consistently I've called some legendary players to come work on gigs, DOC Kup Guf from tower power and Tom Scott and Leland Square and Rick Baptist on trumpet and heavyweight, heavyweight, legendary guys. And always, always, always there, the first one set up a rehearsal. You know, never complain, Never Bitch, play their butts off, laughtell jokes, easy to get along with. I don't have to chase them down on brakes. Right you know, never have to worry about them. Yeah, you know. So that's always what I'm looking for when I contract, is people I don't have to think about, right, because there's all those other stuff that I have to worry about and take care of, you know, and I think it's the same for any artist you're working for, is being visible for that artist that they never have to think about you if they don't have to. Yeah, it's really interesting because I've never heard it from that perspective because a lot of musicians complain like you have, like Kikoma see for instance. Awesome, but it's great to work for. But you have to get used to the idea that she's only going to talk to you when you're wrong. He's only going to correct you, like if you're doing great, she's not going to write just a thank you. She's very polite, but it's not like she's going to be I'm like, oh, that was a great solo who like okay, next song, you know, and then that dad, you're good. There's a lot artists in a lot of people like that. Right. That's like a different way of sort of that. It kind of explains it from the other side, because you know, as you know, musicians sort of are...

...sort of inherently insecure a lot of times and and narcissistic exactly. It's all about me, except when it's not about me, and then it's about me, right. Yeah, you know. And and from from the artist standpoint, they're worrying about their performance, of course, yeah, and the lights and that are the ticket sales good, and they have to do press in the morning and then they have to get on in the next town and you know, they've got a million things that they're thinking and worrying about. Yeah, and don't be one of those things that they have to worry about. Yeah, you know. And you know, I've worked with guys who like go into sessions and they're the jokest guys and crack a joke and notice me and you know, right, and that just it was never my thing to be that guy and and maybe it takes you a little while longer for people to remember you, but I think ultimately it's the best way to go. Love it. So I met my wife on them, on the high school musical tour, and she was working for Monique Coleman and her brothers. Was An actor in it, but she was always like kind of hanging out with the band because we were just cool. But she never took me a while to get to know her and she just was like, Oh, you were just invisible, Eric, and for a long time I was tripped about that until I think this moment was like the reason is is because of that effort. I'm don't want to be noticed and necessarily I'm just the BASS player anyways. It's not my job to be sticking out right. My job do you everything right and if I'm doing it, I don't don't need to say anything. Exactly, you know and exactly that's and ultimately, those are the guys who get called back and keep working. And Yeah, that's why you're getting the great gigs that you're getting, because you know you show up, you're on time, you got a great attitude, you killed the gag, you go home. Yeah, done right, thank you. Yeah. Well, well, I really enjoy working with you as a leader because you because of all that stuff and it just works with what I'm attempting to do as a player anyways. But I love that you are all there's always charts. You know, there are good charts that work and you know even your rehearsals are a really efficient you. It feels like you don't want to rehearse much, which I kind of I think that. You tell me if I'm wrong, but it feels like you enjoy a little spot in Aity. Yeah, you know, you want some some freshness to everything. You don't want to overread this stuff down, you know. You know, I don't want to waste guys time and and and also my job. What I want to do is I want to hire guys who are great at what they do and then cut them loose. Yeah, I'm not going to tell you how to play bass, play Bass right exactly. If I have to tell you pile to play Bass and you're the wrong call. Yeah, you know. So you know I'm calling guys we're very confident in what they do and can just step up and play and I can say play a solo here and them okay, yeah, and step up and play it. You know. So it's always it's always a pleasure when you call me. Always anxious to do it because I know it's going to be great, and it's like you make it easy for a guy to do it, for the right people who don't need you know, because my other thing is like people, do you have any questions? Just give me a call im I got the chart, I got the time. I don't need to talk to you, you know, like I don't don't any questions, you know, like I'm anything I could else. I can figure it out. I've played music before, you know. Right, there are other people that are just like you know, you hire them and your phone is ringing off the hook all all hours with stupid questions, like, dude, I don't know this. Listen to the CD. It's all there. It's all there, you know, right, anyways. But, yeah, we don't want to be babyshitters. Right, Ye, show up and do the gay and and, you know, hopefully we all have enough going on where you don't have the time to do that anyway. Right. Yeah, you know, I got this other stuff I'm working on. Plus, I'm still trying to shed and become a better player, you know. Yeah, plush, I'm trying to right time, original material. Plus I, you know, got this show coming up or whatever it is. You know. So, you know, no one has the time. Let's be efficient. Get in half fun. Yeah, get the hell out. Cash a check man. Well, we're going over, but if you've if you're not whatever, don't have any gigs. I have a couple more things I'd like to ask you about. Yeah, but mainly like the Michael McDonald record, because he's another big hero of mine and you were on his wide open record, right, and so I was was that a good experience? Michael's the best. Yeah, the best when he has a producer credit. So I'm assuming he was involved. He was there, he was there the whole time. Really, Michael's another one of those guys who let you do what you do and expect you to do what you do and you know, and wants input from you if you if there are ways to make the parts better. But but everything what that was, you know, a session we walked into where the charts were done and written and sounded great, and we actually did. The first time I met Michael was in two thousand. He was doing at the NAM show, the National Association of Music Merchants, for those who don't know, is a show in town and Yamaha puts on a big show every year and in two thousand they honored Michael Mcdonald and so I was...

...part of the horn section for that and we were Hurst all day and Michael says, okay, I got to get ready for the show and he tucked a shirt and he said, okay, I'm ready for the show, ha ha ha, just the most. Know, that's so cool, easygoing. You know, another time we were doing Clyde Davis has pre Grammy Party and he was talking about his son and his wife, Amy Holland, who's an amazing singer, and he was talking about how he was wandering through his house and amy was working on a song and amy, do you needy help with that? No, no, I'm fine and find get out. Just let me do it. And The Sun was working on a song and can I help? You know, dad, leave me alone. Leave me alone, grabbing this conversation. And as we're having the conversation, we hear and, Ladies and Gentlemen, Michael McDonald. He's like, Oh, I'll be right back and just walked straight out to the stage, crushed the song, rushed it then walk back off. He's like yeah, I can't believe my family won't let me help them with their songwriting. Let's see if it's wow, all right, way to own the stage. Wow. Yeah, so he was. He's fantastic to work with. That's so cool that that would definitely be another dream gig. If you're if you're listening, but it's so you know, it's just great to hear that about your heroes. The you know, the whole thing about don't your heroes. There are, you know, plenty of people. I've met him like, Oh, I don't really want to work with you. Yeah, but yeah, he was great. He's you know, Mude, most of the legendary singers have been great. Yeah, Patty Labelle was fantastic. Well, I was going to ask you about the White House. That was my next thing. Is that what you were talking about? Our View, you've worked? Sure, yeah, a few times. Okay, cool. Yeah, but they did, PBS did a tribute to the women of soul at the White House when the Obama's were there, and so we flew in and rehearsed for the day before the show and then the day of the show and then did the show and it was a cavalcade of Patty Labelle, Melissa as rage, yeah, Jill Scott, Aretha, whoever else, I'm forgetting, Arianna Grande, right, and Janelle money, Janelle, Mone Tessa and Chan. You know, so really, so much fun and they were were rehearsing and Jill Scott comes up on stage, comes up to the horn. She's like, I'm so nervous, I've broken out and hives. And we were hurshed and she sounded great, you know. Yeah, and then Ariana Grande comes up, she comes up to the horror sections. She's like, I'm so nervous I'm going to vomit right now. We're just all kind of few, you know, not only singing at the White House and in front of Obama, but in front of a wreatha Franklin, because the producer did a really smart thing and that he had the singers all be in the room right as each other were singing, and that was really smart. And is it? Yeah, and I would be like you don't want to watch this, or you'll never been. I was so impressed. But because Paddy label comes out, opens with over the rainbow, HMM, destroys lives, like, and then I think Janelle Mone is next and I'm like, what are you going to do now? You know, like yeah, but then Janelle does tightrope, yeah, well, yeah, and crushes at yeah, and that's so impressive. Everyone, everyone come out and they're just they're just amazing. Yeah, let's Ethridge. Ah, I was like okay, okay it because it first you're like, how's that going to fit in with all this? And then she does that. I'm the only one. Yeah, and Oh, that fitsn't quite well, like she destroyed it. And a song that she sang that didn't make the broadcast. She did midnight train to Georgia. Oh Wow, and crushed it. Allow just took everyone by surprise that she had that kind of soul, you know, because everyone knows there was a rocker chick. But yeah, she was fantastic. I just remember thinking that's why she's where she is right special. Yeah, that's not yeah, yeah, she's got that thing. So it was great that. You know, they everyone was in the room, so everyone really up their game, because that's a good point of fall you know. So we had a blast and man to be you go through security and suddenly you're on the other side of that black gate and you're like, Holy Shit, I'm on the other side of the gate the White House. And then, you know, for me, I'm looking like, okay, we're the secret surfs guys. Okay, there's the guy on the roof, there's the two vans in front of the White House that are always running, the engines always on. WHOA, you know it. So and you're in the White House and I'm looking for all the panic buttons. Okay, there's no one in the corner there behind that book. Wow, that's intense, so much fun. And then, you know, there was a there was a receiving line to meet the OBAMAS before the show and they take a picture and there's a navel lieutenant who introduces you and and so the lieutenant takes me and...

President Obama is George. Shelby's playing sax in the show. George, you doing shake hands and I said, you know, at the time I said I said thank you for the affordable care act because that's allowed my family to have medical insurance. And it's like hey, man, that's what we're here to do and work. We talked about music for a minute. Wow, and then they handed me down to Michelle Obama and the name Lieutenant introduced me and I said thank you for all you've done for music education in schools, because it's so important. Kids get so much out of that, and she said you're so sweet for saying that and she reached out to give me a hug and time just stopped because not for all the things that I've been briefed on and White House Protocol, no one talked about hugging. And on either side of the OBAMAS are two genetically engineered human beings that are just huge, six five, double wide neck and you can see that the guns popping out on either side and she's reaching to give me a hug and AH, no, why, what's going on? Help someone? And her arms are going past me and I look I was like, Damn, she really does have better arms and I and dude, I gave her the worst hug in the history of hugs. I was like, Oh, okay, all right, thank you, I'm I'm keeping my hands visible at all time. Wow, but they were great and I forget what some part of Eastern Europe was blowing up at the time, so I thought maybe the show is going to be canceled. But they came in and he hung the whole night. He was there was no aide rushing in with last minute whatever and you know, well, so much fun, such an honor to be there and be a part of that. And Greg Filling Games was a musical director and Greg has a real gift for finding new, fresh things with old songs. He just makes arrangements sound freshen and yeah, I've been lucky to be with him on that and the grammys, the tribute to Rutha Franklin, and he just that's really he's a amazing player, but he can make any song just sound contemporary. Yeah, yes, White House was great, you know, and not to get political, but you watch all the stuff on TV and politics has become such a cartoon in a way. It must have been just the fact that, you said, a navel guy introduced it. Like, when you're there it must be like, Oh, this is the the leader of the free world. You know whoever it is, you know what I mean. And and you really realize at that point it's not this person, is not this person. That's who he represents, right, you know, and it's the representation of the government and the representation of democracy and the representation of why we're all here, what we're all fighting for and what we all believe in. And it's yeah, so it's really sad, as I'm pretty much a centrist at this point, which means everyone hates me. You know, I'm not. Yeah, I'm not extreme left. I'm not extreme right. You know, I can find things on both sides to get behind and support and indoors right. And it's laughable to me the concept that as three hundred and thirty million people were supposed to be either this way or this way, you know, but I know it's the reality is people make money off that divisiveness. Yeah, you know, and so they encourage that and plug into it and get people to buy into it. And you know, there are times I wish, man, I wish the aliens would invade to give us a common enemy, a common enemy that we could come together and you know, I know said a lot of the Societe. Yeah. So, yeah, it was it was great to be there and just you really felt pride in the country and not only that, when we were driving around. The people in DC really took pride in DC and you know, Oh, Warren harding would have cocktails over there every night and walk over and, you know, love DC. I really need the best music fans because they're the most boring people. You know, they're sitting in an office talking about politics all day, you know, right, and they then they get to a moat right now and, like I don't know. I've a right always loved playing there. Well, and for me, like I've played in DC where we've hired local DC musicians which are from all the armed forces, all right, the airmen of note and and all the great bands. Yeah, so for me personally, I'm sorry to say this, I had much more confidence in a DC band than I had pretty much anywhere else because they just came in and slaughtered the parts. Yeah, you know, beautiful. Yeah, yeah, we used to do us oh shows at Constitution Hall with Keiko and we would it's...

...again, it's orchestra things. So we'd be there for a few days and I had to get used to people being like Um, this is a GE is. Shouldn't that be a g sharp? Sir? This just sounds odd, but amazing sounding, you know, musicians and right and the whole thing. And I remember talking to him and they're like yeah, this is my job, like I get paid a salary to come here and playing this orchestra. Right, I had to do six weeks of bags of draining and then I just come here and playing my instrument. You know, it's like a really cool now I'm recruiting people right now. I don't know why, but it was always a really fun you know those here in in DC for some days and it's so fun. Yeah, because it's hard not to get patriotic when you're in that town. I agree. All the all the history and very picture you've ever seen, you know, no matter what side drawn, there's so many. Martin Luther King stood right here. And we're we're so we're set up in the eastream of the White House and there's a picture of George Washington behind us and as we're setting up, an I sure comes up and he says that picture is the one that Dolly Madison cut out of the frame and took with her when the British invaded and burned the White House, so please be careful. Yeah, wow, like cool, which is fine, but then every six minutes someone else would come up to that's the picture that Dolly Madison and now you just want to start screwing with people right now. You want to start. Oh, this picture here that I'm putting my finger yeah, yeah, but the real deal history that's there is is incredible and and to get made to be able to make music with those people in that circumstance was yeah, and you know also when I was watching a wreath of Franklin stand three feet from the first black president. Yeah, I was pretty wide eyed the whole time and trying to drink. It's like, okay, don't forget this, don't forget this in this moment. We print to be here right now. Yeah, right, yeah, well, man, thank you so much for coming out and telling me all your stories. I mean, there's not even. We haven't even. Usually when I start doing notes for the stuff, I just start brainstorming, you know, and you know I got about four and a half pages in notes per guests, and that's after, you know, another six or seven hours of working on it with you. Just the brainstorming is four and a half pages. Now I'm going to start asking questions about just the topics and I'm like, you know, you have such a diverse the career. You know that you do so many things that it's just hard to cover and in an hour and a half or whatever, you know. So maybe we'll have you back on if you're willing later. We do this like toorrow. I mean, I don't want to next week. Can mess up your busy schedule. Yeah, let me check my calendar. Oh, man, I've known you for probably close to twenty years now, because you played in cavicortill with me and, like I was probably here a year and October ninth will be twenty years. So it's it's always great playing with you. It's always great hanging with you. You too, Matt. Thanks for coming. My pleasure. All right, don't get covid too late. Wait, what you said? You were tested. I didn't say what the result was, said I was test. I love how he kind of talks in movie language. You know, when he was talking about Saxhols, I brought up that there aren't any sack Solos and pop music and he went right to it's because of the movies kind of getting lazy and using it for love scenes. And then when I brought up sight reading, he went right to a movie session and talked about the baton dropping at ten am. I thought that was pretty cool. I think that's a very unique to la kind of thing. You know, and I've been saying this for years, but I think that this town is becoming less and less of a music town really for original bands and artists and stuff, because, you know, it's such a centered around TV and film kind of town. It's an industry town. You know, it's kind of hard to grow a fanbase here locally. I can attest personally to that after trying to, you know, spending some time and clubs working on my own records. It's hard to get people out. It's an industry town and people are working on entertainment all day and and it's, you know, going out to see a band is generally not, you know, something they're just going to naturally do. I think it's something good to keep in mind if you're planning to move here as a songwriter or a band or something. It seems like your music doesn't matter as much and less it caters to TV or film, and if it does, it can make a lot of money, because that's kind of the only way to make money anymore anyway. So it's a it's not a bad thing to to keep in mind when you're writing your songs. I don't know, but you know, hit me up if you disagree with that. If you're if you're living in La and and you can make a good argument that there's...

...a great thriving music scene. Maybe, maybe, maybe I'm out of touch out and know. Hit me up. Let me know. I also liked when he talked about college hyper analyzing music. I thought that was really interesting. It kind of it reminds me of something non musicians like to say if I ever mentioned that I don't like math. Well, music is music, is math, and the truth is that music is a form of emotion, little expression. The way that we record music and the way that somebody decided to write it down and analyze it hundreds of years ago is math, and I think it's easy to get lost in the math when you're in music school and forget that somebody made noises that were pleasing to the ear and made feelings happen. You know, that's really what we're talking about. Then somebody else tried to figure out what's happening and how to notate it, and that's what we study. But that's not really music, you know. Having said that, studying your craft is absolutely essential when it comes to anything in life. You know, just it's just try not to lose track of what it's really about, and the fact that George makes a conscious effort every day to remember why he plays music is one of the keys to his success, in my opinion. I should also add that being aware of this may not be a requirement to get work, but it will make you. You know, it's going to make you a better musician and that may be the edge that will get you a Gig over the next guy. George mentioned working with Johnny Halliday, who was a huge French pop rock star who started in the s and had a great career right up until he passed away in two thousand and seventeen. He mentioned a Herbie Hancock record. He said possibilities, but he meant to say river letters to Joanie. That's the record that features wayne shorter and Johnny Mitchell and other single years as well. It's a really great record. I would definitely check that out. The West End of London is the Broadway air quotes of London. Of course it's the theater district. And George plays the W xfive Midi Wind Controller by Yamaha and that's what he triggers the vote coder with. So you might check that out if you're interested in starting your career in vocoding. Is that a word? Vote Coding? I'm not sure. I hope you guys had a good time. Wow, you've made it to the end. I'm hoping it's because you completely enjoyed yourself and are now filled with knowledge and inspiration to move forward with your dreams. If that is the case and you would like to stay informed of new episodes, live events in general news, please go to dive Bar rockstarcom and sign up for the mailing list. If you have any questions, comments, corrections or complaints about anything you here on the show, please email me at fan mail at dive Bar Rockstarcom and you may even end up on the show. We at the dive Bar Rockstar podcast with all of our hearts. Thank you for listening and remember it's all about dreams.

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