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The Dive Bar Rock Star Podcast
The Dive Bar Rock Star Podcast

Episode 32 · 6 months ago

Drew Taubenfeld- Slow and Steady Wins The Race (Kacey Musgraves, Dwight Yoakam, Meghan Trainor)

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Multi-instrumentalist and Musical Director, Drew Taubenfeld, talks about the nuances of networking as a new musician in town. He reflects on his years at Berklee College Of Music with an injury that prevented him from playing his instrument. He reveals what he looks for when hiring musicians and what you should have on your social media account. Drew discusses how he got started in Los Angeles and how he’s been able to rise among the ranks of musical directors.

www.drewtaubenfeld.com

Seasons:

https://open.spotify.com/album/6erAYXUemywj4fAc68p3k0?si=tYjaYNkbRTaUKfj0lOSTzg

Hootenanny 1 mic

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaqEJPaky3ZTLoeuI1r7Hfg/videos

www.divebarrockstar.com

If you are a fan of the dive bar Rockstar podcast and would like to help support the show, there's a great way that you could do that and start a new fashion trend. We have a new merchandise page on the website, which features t shirts and hoodies that are available for sale on Amazon. Just click on merchandise and the top menu and all of the links will be there. or go directly to dive Bar rockstarcom merchandise. Get started early on your Christmas shopping at dive Bar rockstarcom. Welcome to the dive Bar Rockstar podcast, the show exploring the lives of professional musicians of all types, touring musicians, recording artist, songwriters, engineer's bar bands, wedding bands and anyone making their living in the music industry. Whether you've dreamed of being a professional or you already are one, this is the podcast for you. I'm your host, Eric Baines, and I hope that you not only find some entertainment here, but also some helpful tips, trade secrets and ideas that will help you achieve your dreams. Well, I can't believe it's the holidays already. This year just flew by. I think this is my third podcast this year versus the twenty nine that I did the year before. So I apologize for not being as prolific, if you will, this this time around, but it's it's been crazy getting back to work and I hope it's been a better year for everyone listening than the year before. But it also gives me a chance now to wish you all marry Christmas and a Happy Happy Holidays, whatever it is that you celebrate, or maybe it's just you love to take the two weeks off every year and don't celebrate anything. Welcome those people too, and I do wish everyone who listens to the show the best and hopefully next year will be even better. Thanks. ARE OPENING UP, they're closing up. It's still crazy, but we're all getting by some Mohow, hopefully, and I hope that everyone has a great year next year and I hope that everyone enjoys my guest tonight because today, whenever you're listening to it as a podcast, that's the beauty of it. You get to you get to decide. But my guess today is an incredible guitar player, multi instrumentalist and musical director here in Los Angeles. He's played an mded for Demi Levado, Selina Gomez, Magan, trainer Leon bridges, Christina Perry and for a brief, but hopefully not only, stint with the one and only Dwight Yoakum, but he's recently left us to be the musical director for Casey Musgraves, and if you don't know who that is, check her out. She's incredible. He's also played at the grammys, the Emmy's, on American idol and all of the late night shows, including this season of Saturday night live with Casey. On a side note, this interview was recorded before there snl performance, but it went wonderfully well well, and you should check it out on Hulu. I haven't known him super long, but we became fast friends on the road and he's really awesome guy and I'm really excited to feature my conversation with the super talented Drue Taubenfeldt. Thing about that strikes me about you that's not exactly me and I wish I was better at but it seems like you really love to learn, absolutely and that's probably a gift, and in this business, because I'm always the guy that's like. I used to play trumpet as a Kiddo, was my first like private lessons, and I had a thirty lesson every Monday at six o'clock. Ride on the nose. I'd start practicing, you know, and, like I just I'm more of a like interactive that's what I love about music. It's like the interaction. So for me to sit and play alone just drives me nuts. I have I hate it. You need people. You know I need people. Yeah, I need a reason, sure, you know, but not all guys are. Guys are like that, and I think it's an advantage sort of. So where do you think that came from? I think I'm still I'm still thinking about it and figuring it out because, you know, I think it's a double edged sword. I love to me that that's space. When you have a new instrument and you don't know anything about it or like a new language or whatever, like the first part of it, you learned so much every day and it's just so exciting and you the Games, you can make our our you know, pretty huge in a shorter period to time and like right, I call it the honeymoon phase, you know, and I think sometimes I go back and forth between what you're saying. Well, what a what an advantage. And then also, man, if I really could just shut up and sit down and focus on guitar, I could really be good by now. You know right. So sometimes, sometimes I wonder about it and say, am I just kind of flirting with all these little like dipping my toe into all these things, when I really could be just digging deeper on maybe my main instrument? But I've learned about myself, you know, at my age I...

...can't function anymore on sheer like will power, like I have to be something. I can't just like grip my teeth like I'm supposed to be practicing eight hours today. I have to be in love with it. I have to wake up and just be like like excited to go do something. And for me, that that new instruments, new styles, exploring records I've never heard before, trying to get a figure out a style of music that I know nothing about, really keeps me going in a way that, you know, is makes me invigorated. Right, right. And do you find it sort of like meditative? Yeah, yeah, yeah, do you enjoy that aspect of it? Yeah, I really do. Like, here's this thing, you can't really do it that well, and like here's someone showing you how to do it and you can kind of just sit, sit in your room and play really slowly and watch it get better little by little. I kind of I like that space, like deep work, you know, when your time disappears, you look up and it's nine pm all of a sudden. And Yeah, I really I think that's a special space and, if I'm honest, I have trouble getting to that same space sometimes, like with a guitar, because I've been fighting. That's those improvements are like in their millimeters now, right, so it cancus are so great or no? Because, yeah, because I've tried it. So I think I have too much baggage. It's like a bad relationship that's like, yeah, we can't start over, baby, because it's just we fought too much, too much, too long. And Yeah, I think I almost wish I learned guitar with the brain that I have now. You know, right, or however was polluted in music school or whatever. I think there's baggets there. Yeah, you know. No, yeah, definitely, absolutely. Yeah, I think about that sometimes too. Like I've played the bass guitars and seventh grade, like I've done it so much in like over time you go through those periods, just like a relationship, like when I don't want to touch a base, I want to think about it, and then other times when I'm like, Oh, I'm just maybe I've learned something new. I get a new GIG that introduces new skills or like, you know, because that's another thing I always into, is just like it's really easy to go into other some gigs and complain about the way people are asking you to play. Sure, but if you just give into it and do that, you just find that you've just opened up a whole branch of your playing that you wouldn't have had you complained. You know what I mean? That's, to me, one of the best parts of working is, like it can teach you thinks you cannot learn by yourself, which is adapted to a singer's perspective on how you should play your instrument, which is frustrating at times. Right, you walk away with like this, it just as its armor, is this m this wealth of experience. Yeah, and you're a Berkeley Guy. Yeah, and so that's another thing too, like you come out of Berkeley and for me, I had all these chops and I want to use them all the time. And, like you know, some some musical directors are frustrating or some situations, like I played the blues for about six seven years after I got out of Berkeley and it was like, Oh God, there's just nothing to play on the blues for a Bass player except the bassline and three chords a night. Sure, but at the same time the end of that is like wow, I can I'm a really good I'm good at that now. You know what I mean. And if you need me to play nothing else but just the bays, now I have that, you know, which not a lot of people coming out of music school could do. Right sometimes, you know, you have to hand be around those people that play and know when to walk a certain way at like right, there's a way and there's a way to turn around a phrase that doesn't have anything to do with other style. Sometimes right, right. Yeah, absolutely. How was your Berkeley Experience? You have an interesting story about that actually, because you couldn't play. Yeah, it's a funny. You went to music school not being able to play right. Read a lot of books, you know. Yeah, that's I guess for anyone that doesn't know, my friends would know. But very early on I had just really painful carpal tunnel tend nightis muscle straight whatever. I was practicing a lot and probably with a lot of stress, you know, looking back on it now, just like I gotta keep up with these kids that are so good, you know, and my hand just kind of gave it, just, you know, as I couldn't turn a doorknob without pain. You know that. And so it was scary and I didn't really know. There weren't a lot of resources that I was aware of. Today there's a lot more, but it was scary and I had some teacher saying I'll play through the pain, some teacher saying like like don't do not do that, you could end your career, like, you know. So I didn't really know what to do in there. And it was this at Berkeley or this is previously getting there at Burke. There's probably like my like third week of class. Oh Wow, you know, like right at the beginning. And so my guitar was kind of in the closet for my first two years at Berkeley. Wow, it was really strange and you know, and I you'd have these final exams and I would practice all the scales in my head. You know, here's g mix alidion from this position. I would just...

...practice it in my head and I pick up the guitar lightly play it maybe the day before the exam and then go past the exam. It was a kind of that thing and wo which is a wild you're watching everybody get but it's like you're starting a race and you trip and everyone's just like on the third lap already, and then of course, you know, you notice, you recognize music as in a race, which is a whole nother conversation, but that's how you feel as a eighteen year old kid. Right what, I'm never going to catch up to these guys and women, you know. But Um, for me it was actually helpful in the long run because I took a lot of like I was like, well, what do I do? I'm here, I want to be a musician, this is my life, like, I don't want to just go to accounting school. It just it wasn't even an option, even with I couldn't play guitar. MMM. So I took like all these ear training classes, Beethoven, string quartet's arrangements, you know, music history, and just kind of learned and listen to like a thousand records. You know, at that time was a lot of jazz. That's what you know music schools at that time. I don't know what it's like now. Is like if you don't listen to jazz records, you're not a musician, right, whatever that is. But yeah, I was listening to music, studying music and like slowed down and I think I was in high school. I was kind of a flashy player, you know, I shredded and like all that stuff, and I think that time really calmed me down and and found him. I wasn't a very fiery person like. I didn't play a lot, like my personality, and I think not playing for two years and listening a lot and when I got the guitar back, I said, what do I actually want to do with this thing? You know, I don't really want to play sixteen notes with the metronome. It right, see, you count the BPM you can get to and them it really have. It forced me to find, I think, a way of expressing guitar, because when it came back it was a process. It wasn't like okay, two years and then here it is. It was, you know, really light strings on the guitar, not bending notes and getting back into it and, yeah, just changed the way I approach music, which was interesting. You know, did you do the diploma program or like the full degree? The degree? There was our academic you probably had to take care of anyways. Yeah, yeah, did you go to like a community college leading up or yeah, I looked into that. I had some friends that had done or you know, I talked to people that did Berkeley and I said, if you can get some of that stuff out of the way. So I, you know, tested addict some courses, took community college and then there were some really good ones. You know, there was art history and with the this guy, Professor Tata, I think his name was. He was like he worked at one of the Museum of you know museum's there. It was like a really interesting and people say, Oh, you go to Berkeley and the classes are bullshit, and you know, but I think I learned probably a lot in art history and psychology, and I mean that's such an eighteen year old thing to say, like look, fuck all the yeah, you know, like it's like well, philosophy is gonna have a lot to do with playing music, I would think. You know, yeah, get it, you're already paying for the clash. You might as well learn something there. Yeah, you know, if you can, if you can't. I mean I took I took a philosophy that my one academic that I took there just for fun because I was doing the diploma thing. Yeah, was philosophy class, but I just realized the first day, like I'm in here with a bunch of songwriters that just think everything they say is incredible. They really want to use big words, and it was just like most of the class just waiting for them to shut up. So like learn something. You know, I don't know, that's like digging anyway, waiting for songwriters. No, waiting for singers to shut up. Now I've kidding, but yeah, but yeah, that's who you are and I bet that's climate. Most colleges are like that. People just trying to you know, yeah, probably try to sound smart and philosophy class or whatever. Yeah, but if you can listen in philosophy class rather than talk, that's when you're really getting right, which is a great lesson about music. I don't don't you think? Oh, of course, of course, and people forget and it's rare. It's rare. You know. I think there's I don't know how you feel. I think we're surrounded by incredible musicians, but I feel like people who really are present in the room and like here and find space is more rare, I think, than like holy cow, you can really play that instrument, you know? Yeah, sure, I think so. You know. Well, I think it's it's a weird time to especially with covid but like I had a friend of mine, Corey James, on here and he's younger cat out of Berkeley and and he was talking about it's a chops world and its like you have so many people on Youtube wear your job. You're just by yourself showing off, like that's how you get ahead. Now, sure, but it really doesn't lend you to being a great lend to you being a great player. You know what I mean? Like that's really neat, but it doesn't really show off what I need if I'm hiring a bass player or a guitar player or whatever. You know what I mean. Sure, but it's like what do you do? That's how you promote yourself? It's a weird time. Yeah, and then you have this pop music, which is not about chops in any way whatsoever. Right at the same time, so if you want to make a living having all that...

...chops that you're showing me on your youtube video. It doesn't drive. Yeah, I'm glad you're bringing that up because I think that's a really challenging thing for young musicians, for for for aging musicians to you know, we're kind of like, all, do I need to fucking get a tick tock accounted? Like, look, what do big do you know? So, like I think everyone is, we're all in this pool, not struggling with these things, but thinking about them. And yes, for younger players, like do I need to beat chops guy? And Yeah, and I think there's so many ways to think about it. I encourage everybody to to really take stock and back to the two years I wasn't playing, like think about what you want to say on an instrument, because I think there's a tendency to be out of college and like at this race, like Oh, this guy's on this Gig and I need to do and I think if we look at a music career on a long timeline, look, you really can take space and like okay, your friend might be like the hot shot guitarist on instagram and they might get a couple gigs before you do, but that doesn't mean you have to like copy all those licks on instagram. You know, you can have a different path, you know, and there's so many ways to make a living as a musician and people are, you know, doing that instagram thing, a demo videos, people are doing podcast people are writing songs and scoring films and teaching lessons and and playing country music and playing pop music and, like, I think it really it can. You can feel left behind, but that is what instagram does, you know. It makes women feel unattractive, it makes musicians feel bad about it's like I encourage everyone like take a deep breath and say, you know what, keep forging the path. That because we did this crazy thing to our lives, which is try to pursue a career in music to experience joy. So I try to remind everybody, why did you do this? If you're if you're going to worry about numbers, metrics, money, like you can get a law degree and worry about those things to it. We did this to ourselves, to ourselves to have a happy life. I'm very happy in this in this industry, is crazy as it is, but I think the only way to be happy is to be yourself and not chase like, a thing that you think might be successful. You know. Now, having said that, I think people should be aware of how instagram functions in our in our business, which is basically a website. You know. So right, if people are worried about Instagram, I said, well, you don't have to have a lot of follow I don't, you know, you don't have to posts, read videos. But what you what I would encourage people to think about, is people are going to check you out. Have things on there that you want to represent you. So, you know, if you want to be playing a certain type of music or we thought of as a certain musician, people can say, Hey, check out my buddy eric for this Gig. You know he's Great. The first thing they're going to do is look you up on instagram. Right. So it doesn't mean you have to have a fancy instagram, but it means you should be aware that singers, employers, managers are going to be looking at that saying, oh, what's this person's deal? So you have control over what is on there and it can speak about who you are, and that's the only thing. Yeah, I don't think it has to be fancy, but it's just you should be aware people are looking and making judgments about, like what kind of musician and person this person is. Like like it or not. I don't like it, but that is what is happening. So you know. I mean at the same time, like you said, though, you have control over it. So that's a great thing, sure, you know. Yeah, even beyond, like you know, before all that, you you're dealing with what everyone you know, you would have a reputation in town and you would get recommended and you know, you'd have a demo, probably whatever, but not as much control over what someone else says, if, about you, as what you can demonstrate now. And I don't even have to ask anybody else. I can kind of go to your thing and be yeah, I get it, you know. And I had a cool experience with that recently where I've been releasing like my own instrumental music, like original, and it doesn't like do that. Well, you know, like if I post them, have I posed a lick of me a doing a wild guitar thing or like covering a pop song, it'll get more views when I'm when I'm like Hey, here's the song, that's beautiful song. I'm really proud of like it's like way less, you know, but I've had an experience recently. We're like, people have reached out for gigs that I was were excited of not because they want someone to the you know, that played Acoustic Guitar this specific way that I like to, you know, write. It's mammy. We checked out your page and like man, the way you play acoustic guitars perfect for this. So I'm like, Oh, I was judging this numbers, but actually I'm putting out something into the universe that's like this is exactly how I love to play music. And then people have found that say hey, can you come do that over here, you know, with us? Great, which is like, oh, that's a bigger win to me than, you know, x number of plays on the spot right, whatever. You know, although one of your tracks does as fifty three thousand four hundred and forty three streams.

So you say that, but I don't have those numbers. Yeah, I don't know how that one happened because it's a most of them are like nothing, you know. Yeah, well, another one had like seventy eight hundred, which, you know, not a lot compared to sure, I carry, but you know, you know for someone putting out there on music. You know, a couple of these tracks have hit and is that? Was that like a licensing thing that maybe happened, or like it one of them the I think the one that had more it was a cover and it like found its way on to like playlist or something like. I don't really even know how it works. And Yeah, that that's a cool yeah, I've been putting out the instrumental music and not, but I really enjoy making it and I'm not a ton of people. But then that one kind of found its way and it doesn't. It doesn't translate into like, Oh, I can go like selve get like play gigs and sell tickets. It just find a people listen to it while they're like making coffee or something. Yeah, which think spotify has turned us into. Like the highest musical achievement is people put this on whether they're doing yoga and like don't even care who made it. I'm like, I don't even know if I want to chase that. But the cool thing that happened is somebody from Sweden found it and then he may SCIS own playlist keep put one of the songs on his playlist and it got, like you know, it's probably the one that had like seven thousand or something. But then he wrote me on instagram and said I really like your music, you know, and that's cool. Can you check out? Have A playlist I put and I said, well, your music sounds good too. I heard his band and it was during Covid I've everything to do, and he's like a composer from Sweden's names Johan, and he said you want to make a record together? Cool, so we made one together and now I have a friend in Sweden. So I kind of goes back to what I'm saying about we can look all day at like numbers and numbers, but now I've like made a friend who likes the same kind of music as me. Places. He Played Dobro, which is like how did you even find out about Dobro? And Sweden, which important with the Internet, you know, but but yeah, it's yeah, it's known as a Dobro Free Zone. Except whole scans. Again, I didn't know right. I thought they were there was a great there was that they banded bag of eight hundreds. Well, I mean it's with good reason. You're heard that thing. Yeah, especially when you're learning. It's it could. It could clear a building. You know right well, your music is unbelievable. It's so cool and and so like different than your career path, you know, which will kind of we haven't even touched on yet, but it's it's a really interesting listen. You know what I mean, because you wouldn't expect that from Megan trainers, md. Sure, you know. Sure, Selena Gomez or you know. Now I don't know if we're even allowed to talk about Casey Muskars. I mean you do on TV now. So yeah, sure, your latest Gig, your lace two gigs, Dwight Yoakam. Now you're starting to move towards what I would expect to hear from your instrumental stuff, which must be pretty cool. But, but, just, we'll give up to all that. But just your music, though. I did really, really enjoy it. It was so cool. Thank you. And when you started to make soul, right, so you have like a whole record and then a couple of EPS. Is that? Yeah, situation, thinks I just what I found. Yeah, I think I'm what that is. I made a record, whatever. I don't even remember what year that was. Maybe it was like six years or five years ago. You know, and I said, no one listens, you know, as I put all this energy in the like mixing tenselids, like just make forward, put it out like no one's my mom might listen to the whole bit right. Yeah, it's to be honest about it. So, yeah, I made a reck and then I just kind of do little projects and I have a bunch in the works right now. I have a cello player friend and what we're doing shallow petal. Still do it just like meet people who I who I admire and like. And you know, which is collaborate and instead of like Hey, can we make this big records, like let's do two songs, now throw it up with do four songs and and write some songs. And just like with the friend from sweeten. So I've that's been more of my thing now of like meeting people whose voices I like, collaborating and having good time. That's cool. And you're doing it just for pure joy. And or do you have like licensing stuff that, because it sounds like perfect for any kind of it just sounds like perfect TV, you know, movie. I would love that and I haven't had success pursuing that, but I get that common a lot like. Do you square films? Do you? And I'm like you. I don't even know who to talk to, but guide you. I think it's some point. I might see about the licensing. Put more it's an outlet and I think it's important. You know, that's it's something I talked about a lot, like I don't know how it is now. It seems like people are so like the kids graduating now or so like they're. They're good at the promoting their own like brand. I'm making a quotes in the air brands, you know, which great for like. I think when I was coming up there was such a like your side man, don't ever like like talk about your own music, like it's like such a taboo.

You know, it's interesting, and so I've lived in that for a long time and I noticed that I would get frustrated on gigs f artist had a different idea, like if they didn't like my ideas. That's an MD, you know. I've have this great idea for the it's like no, I want to do this and I would like feel frustrated, you know, but it's their show. I'm here, you know I'm here. You're here to serve someone else's vision. And Look, why am I getting frustrates, like why I don't make my own music, you know. So, getting back to what I was talking about, being being connected to why you play guitar in the first place, like how beautiful I have a studio, I can record at home and a place that I don't need any distributor to just put out whatever. I could put make whatever I want. I could smash a guitar with a microphone and put it out, if that's how feeling that, you know. Yeah, or I could make exactly the music that's in my head. And when I started doing that, I think I got so much better as a Sideman, MD, because then I could just I had this calmness, like right, here's an idea. Why? I don't like that idea. Okay, what do you know? More I really like that. I did great, okay, or no, I don't really like that, but how about this? Okay, great, let's do that. Like I really had no ego, rat steak, because I started doing live gigs, I started making my own music and I thought that was just that was fulfilled for me, and then emding or gigging became like let me make the artists vision, because now I have empathy. You know. It's like man, it's hard to make a record, it's hard to do a live show and like yeah, as yourself right. So how do we support them? This is their record right now. That was helpful. Well, I think it's it's unbelievably beautiful stuff and it's so interesting because, like it's instrumental kind of with traditional, more like country instruments, but the changes are not country. You know. It's like it was like some pretty deep changes. You know, the melodies are definitely not, you know, country. It makes for a real interesting listen for me, but the flavors are still there. That's why I think it would be so great for us for any kind of TV stuff or film, because it's got its own kind of Vibe, but you still feel familiar in it. You know what I mean? If you're, if you're like a Rye cooter fan or like, you know, any sort of more traditional thing with the Doughbros in the petal steels and like, all that stuff still to me. If you if you're also sort of a music heead, you're not bored. Oh yeah, no, I mean, thank you. I think that's a called conglomeration of just me, like, you know, as like a kid who was taking the Beethoven string quartets, and not that I can write class call at all, but like there's so much stuff that I love to listen to. I think when I sit down and make music, it's exactly I love petal steels, I love Banjo's, I love traditional folk music, but I love harmony that moves this way. It's just kind of yeah, I think that's just everything that's put in the soup of my experience with music, which is that, to me, is the best part about making music, because you just take everything you've listened to and see how it kind of falls out of you. Right, right. I also love the you have the kind of the journey of your melodies. In a way, you know, that's kind of what I dig too. It's like gooes places that you don't like. Oh that's a different I didn't expect it to turn that corner, you know. Well, thank you. I was I didn't even realize we'd be talking about this, so I appreciate it. If you don't mind, I'd love to plays on it. Of course, I don't sue me or anything now it's fine. You know, and seasons. Did you did you? That's the name of your two thousand and twenty ep to do write that stuff during covid or was that a product of yeah, nothing else to do now it's sound that. It sounds like let's make music now. That was so. I live in the valley like you, and I met a wonderful Bass player, Nam Gen Condos, who I was doing a perch Gig with her and she was just around the scene and I go see her bands play in it and we realize we live down the street from each other and Shet Hike Fryman Canyon all the time, so we would just start hiking became friends. She said do you write music? You know? I said Yeah, well, she said we'll send me something and not. So I sent her a voice memo of an a section and she...

...sent me in a section. Oh cool, and then she finished the B section and I finished the beat section hers and we kind of did that for a little bit, which we had. I think two of the tunes came from that and then I had two other ones that I was messing around with and recorded it during covid and all the acoustics and steal and then I sent it to Jen said you want to play bass on your songs and she says, well, yeah, I'm actually and she's married to Jay Bell Rose, who's so one of the greatest drummers. Yes, now, little drummer, we have a tradition on this podcast in every time you mentioned some of us, a phenomenal musician, phenomenal drummer. He truly. Yeah, Oh, yeah, truly world clubs. So she said, well, you know, of me and Jay are set up. You might have j plays. I said you do, I mind of Jay Bell rose play. Of course that. So I had laid down all these acoustics and petal steal and just kind of sent it off and wasn't really sure and hadn't had a lot of drums on my music, but it was Jay, so it's like, of course I want to hear this. I was just wildly impressed by how, you know, usually I'll get tracked from people and, you know, done in their studio and okay, loaded in you all right, cool, we start compressing things. You cute puts you ever my oh all right, here we go. You know, I had to remember opening my email the first time and downloading the files, loading and approach and pushing play and it just it was like this sounds like a record, like just like they really mmm. And I'll tell a funny story about that. Actually I set one over. It was like the third song we were working on, you know, like this is my record. It wasn't it right and a house. I had these new headphones that sounded really good, but they were open years, you know, there are the whatever like not the close ones. And there was a little bit of click lead. I mean you could barely hear it. You had to turn it up and I said it and JEN calls. You know, I can hear some click. You don't want that on your record. So, you know, just recut that and send it back and she said, we take we take it really, we take the tones really seriously here. So like, you know, yeah, just, yeah, fix that and send it back, you know. And I really appreciated that. And even though, yeah, and you get that one, when you get files from them, it's just like wow, this is this is really they're not just throwing up mikes. Instead like they really care about it and it was just it was a pleasure to well and it. I think that's the competitive edge now, because everyone's got mics and everyone's I got to set a drums right here, you know, but I experience the same thing. I have a few different people that I get drums tracks from, and it's like sometimes you open it up and it's done. Yeah, and like cool, yeah, that's amazing, and that's kind of a little how it should be, I think. You know, and away. I mean it depends on what you want, because if you're a person who's an engineering type, you don't want a lot of decisions made for you. Sure, you know, sure, but if you're hiring the right drummer for the right song and he knows what's supposed to sound like, yeah, please, the more time you can save me, you know. Yeah, you're true. You don't want to edit drums all day. No, that's horrible. Yeah, that that's really worth talking about. People ask like how do I record more and like, to me, the two things are like sounding really good, like record, capturing your own things and having it sound really good, and and creative choices. You know, if there's a drummer and every time you get something back from it's like I have to Eq the hell out of it and I have to copy and paste, like chop up the snare drum and move it back to beats because I don't really like this part. You know, that's that's a pain. I just program it. But if, if someone can bring a collaborative like, okay, I call this person and now the song is better. Right, exactly that. That is really that's the only reason to do it, because I got a box full and incredible samples and I'm pretty darn good programmer. Are you going right? But I I need a little more human vibe and human feel and maybe I want someone else to take on it. Yeah, but if it's not right, it's not worth it, you know. Yeah, because ultimately even the best tracks, and maybe I'm wrong about this, but even the best tracks I've ever received or we're going to require some sort of work, of course, versus ocean way samples that require no work, that just sound awesome. Right. So what would you tell someone that said, Eric, you know, I'm gigging, but I want to record more, you know, for that, what would I need to work on? You know? Yeah, well, I think just that. I think that's that's the thing, like the tones. Yeah, because I can call you back and say, you know what, I need a Bloa got coop. Yeah, and you can go do that. Yeah, but and you know, that'll take me no time. Maybe you're gonna have to recut the song, but if you're already set up and you got your thing, that's the other thing. Efficiency should or be able to get that call. Send you attract that afternoon if you're available. You know what I mean? Yeah, but the less I have to do with it, yeah, the better. And you know's something I've noticed too with these, with folks like Jay who are on that level. You know, they have records on all day. Yeah, these he's got a record, players a record and side a and then it's sideb and then it's and then there's another one and it's and I say I think people who are really goodd at recording. Almost always that I've met who are really good, they just you know...

...what we're talking about. Drums. You know the all the this band from the seventy two and how they did the snare that, and they really understand and have digested the landscape of popular music, from how the Beatles record drums down let Zeppelin does it right, I'll television does it or x or, you know, Willie Nelson, and they really get rather than like here, I practice with the Metronome for twenty years. Hire me. It's like, yeah, okay, that's great. You just mentioned creative choices and I'm like, how often do I need creative choices? Really, when I need you to know is what a yacht rock sound sounds like. Sure, you know what I mean. Captured those tones in those and sometimes those don't even have fills. I just need symbol crashes on the chorus. You know what I mean? Yeah, I've got a drum loop and I just need some humanness to it. Yeah, I don't want Flash, I don't want creativity, I just need you feel. I mean, yeah, you know, and so much. It's more often that. And then I've got this killer Progressive Rock Fusion Song. Can you know? Yeah, show me all your chops, you know, and that's something I think is missing from music school. You know, and and some places might have it, but I think if you're going to really get a music education, and it's great to be able to you should be heavy and be able to read and be able to play and you know different time signatures and different keys. Of course you know, but I think it would really be who the lot of young people just digest how things are recorded right from Elvis Pressley Count Basie, you know, to Punk Rock and yeah, gang of four, and like just digest as much on your instrument as you can about, like here's what the Beatles were doing, here's why it sounds like that. I think a lot of people that are graduating from your score missing that element, and a lot of people who are really, really good and really working out here and blowing me away with like what they can do to attract have like that, like Oh, the guitars from you know, the your rhythmics. It's like that they did this interesting thing with this and then Yat you know. Yeah, it's Super Nerdy. Yeah, and you can read about it's all out there like information. None of it's a secret. Yeah, it's just hard to like, where do I start? It's like just read those beetles. o. The thing what I need you to do is recreate a two granded day studio. I need it just sound as good as capital records or know. Can you do that at your house? In a lot of times all takes his right plugins. But you've got to know what that sounds like. You've got to know what you're listening for. You've got to know. Yeah, that exactly, you know, because that if you want to compete, if you want to record more. Yeah, quotes, you know. And how? Right, like I mean just acoustic guitar recording, like we're talking. A lot of my stuff is really Bluegressy, but like that's a really specific righthand thing. That is not how you would attack the guitar to play like Tom Petty Right. It's like it's much more like bass note, heavy wound. But like if you're playing free fall and or like the Jangle, it like your right hand is going to be doing something completely different and it's not that hard to understand the difference. I think just a lot of energy is like, well, I can play this hip instead of g seven. I'm going to do this substitution, which is cool, but like, yeah, I think time. I would encourage of becoming musicians to spend a lot of time on what we're talking about, like the right choices to make a sound, yeah, appropriate for yeah, and it's the times we're living in. You don't have guys doing three four hour sessions a day, anymore, you know, cartage taking their gear to the next studio. It's not it's not how it works. You could you could do ten songs in a day, but it's going to be from your house. If you've got the right you got out of the right gear. You gotta have it all. Yeah, you know happening. Yeah, that's interesting. And so do you record all the stuff at your house? Yeah, all, you're soulsome. I mean it's amazing. Thank you. I mean that's that should be an example of how to correctly record guitars. I'm and adigate tones, you know. Yeah, it can be down and I'm not like that guy. You know, I think people might be hearing this that are like, like, I love playing guitar and might like hopefully it's not discourage you, like you don't have to own ocean way now, like, I have two inputs at my house, you know. I have a like a to Mike Prez, and I record. I've figured out how to record good sounding acoustic guitars, electric guitars, pedal steel and like Banjo's, you know, like it's it's mostly acoustic and then like steal recording so right, and then you send it to a drummer who you as you know, you have friends who do it right, and then you can make a actor that way or go you know, preasure need to go to a studio for a day or two and but yeah, you don't need to own east West Studios. You need to figure out how to record your instrument. Yeah, and that's interesting to you. I mean for a bass player to it''s like have good gear and good basses and it's so much easier. For someone who's a multi instrumentalist, there's a little more stuff involved, obviously, but at the same time it's kind of simple. You know, you you and this is what you offer. It's almost like you're creating your own niche in a way too. It's like the acoustic guitars are great from you. That's what people are going to go to. Exactly. It just do what you do. Yeah, do it well, and that goes back to our thing of like, oh, I got my friend on Instagram,...

...he's in the beginning, who's like ill, these hot licks and like, I think having comfort. It takes a while. It took me grow getting older of his being. Someone calls you for something like Oh, I really need these Eddie van Halen Guitars, you know, and like when I was twenty, I was I have to do everything. Yeah, when I get that phone call now. I say, Hey, you should, here's here's my buddy. You should call. Right. I don't want to. I don't want to take your money and give you mediocre any an Halen Guitar, right. I'd rather give you something really good, and that's not call this guy. He's great at that. MMM, she's great about you know, like. So I think that's you don't have to be the greatest person at every single thing ever under the Sun. I right, you know. Well, the reality is you probably won't be right. Do you want to be great? So as a live player it's a different situation because you know, I've done a lot of weddings and you know I've done a lot of different gigs. I've played. I was smooth jazz guy. Know, I'm a country guy. I've been a rock guy and pretty amazing music, L Chacano, I played with them for a while and like. So, as a live guy you need to you know, yeah, it's not like recording right when you're live in La and there's guys that really do that Van Halen thing right. What I mean? Yeah, and not only that, it's a great sort of networking situation too, because you've just sent this guy some work. Yeah, and he's gonna feel good about returning the favor next time someone says I need a great dobro. Yeah, they're like, don't go to Sweden. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, and you're totally correct with the live thing. Like, if you're going to go on toward you should be able to pull out of your hat some sort of Van Halen e thing. Right, that works for the show reading, for for the the sixteen bars that they need that, right, and then if they need someone doing that all night, you know, you might black. Okay, you know called call my buddy Atam or something. Right, but well, you know, records last forever. Yeah, it's a different way of playing, different outcome. That's expected, different results, you know. Yeah, live it's like it goes by and like dad, that sounds like van Halen. Yeah, but that records are going to go back and go that's in quick and they can go back and well, that doesn't quite well. That, you know, my nightmare, not here. Yeah, right. Well, the funny thing is they don't have to do it, because we'll be doing that to ourselves anyway. Like that, then I suck. Oh Yeah, you'll. Yeah, yeah, people like, have you ever gotten bad comments on Youtube. I'm like, I do that my own head. I don't need to go here someone else there. Yeah, they don't know near as much about music, because I did write and it's not going to be nearly as mean as what I'm saying. So it's not it's not that shocking to me. Yeah, absolutely. I was also impressed by your titling. Oh, thank you. Sophistries of June. Oh yeah, that's a great title. That's Emily Dickinson poem. I had to look at look at up when it meant. Oh, what did it? What did you find? Oh, well, I actually write a use of a fallacious argument. Then I thought Sophists, and you know where I learned about sophism was in my philosophy class at Berkeley. You like, wait, I do know what this bad yeah, that's a it's Emily Dickinson poem. I was just reading at the time and it's about how summer's lying. Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah, Oh, it's all about summers. Look a lie, like you're out there and you're enjoying the birds of there and it's warm, but like it's this is going away soon. So that's kind of that's kind of you know. I know steel playing. Is that? You played the steel that that that's rich Himman, it's fun. Yeah, he's all right. You're good too. Oh, no, no, he's rich is one of the best, you know out there and I played on all the other songs I've done except for this one. I just was I started playing and I said, you know, and I me and rich were he moved to Boston and we were talking along on the phone and I was just sat down to play the Minsk. You know, rich would we had played it live. We started doing live gigs together and I said, you know, I just loved how you played this one live. Could you would you mind? And he graciously, you know, record record on it and he's just as littles wonderful. Yeah, it's it's really great. One other title that I thought was really...

...interesting and I wrote it down and then you already brought it up. Slow and steady wins the race. Sure, that's my grandma always. She always said that, you know, and she just said, and she could to me specific specifically, she's like just keep doing what you're doing, slow and steady. Yeah, that was a young kid, you know, and I yeah, I think that's that's been my experience in the music industry. The more I the more I compare myself to other people what they're doing, the more I'm not enjoying my career. Yeah, and the more I said this is what I enjoy and this is what I just kind of walk your own path. Yeah, you might be twenty two and getting all the gigs, or you might be twenty three and driving Uber and it's all okay. I have friends that were driving uber in their s and then got great gigs. You know, it's like, yeah, it's there's not one way to do it. Yeah, Star, how would you like to hang out and talk about music or discuss something you've heard on the podcast? How about learning some new techniques on the base? Do you have a new song and would like some feedback from an experienced and professional songwriter? You can do all of that and more at go live dot l. Why? I'm offering private bas lessons and songwriting feedback in a private setting over zoom. Just search for me, Eric Baynes, at go live dot Lhy, pick a dating time and schedule lesson. Is that easy? I can teach you advanced based techniques, music theory, improvisation, or we can talk about how to prepare for a GIG, the best thing to wear to an audition or the most important things to know about living on a tour bus. If you have a new song that isn't quite working and you need some feedback from someone who's written and Co written hundreds of songs for artists, TV, film and Video Games, I can help you with that. To all skill levels are welcome. Search for Eric Baynes at go live, dot L Y, Geo l I ve dot L Y, and I can't wait to meet you. I'd like to take a second to thank you for listening to the dive Bar Rockstar podcast. As a new podcast, getting the word out as a vital part of what it takes to keep the show on the road, or off the road, as the current case. Maybe if you would like to support the podcast, all you got to do is subscribe wherever you listen and if you have an extra minute or two, please leave a review. You can also share and follow the podcast on your social media APPS. Okay, enough begging. I hope you're having fun and once again, thank you for listening. So you got out Berkeley. What made you cheose this beautiful town of Los Angeles? My brother lived out here and I was kind of lost. I went back to Baltimore and I didn't really know what exactly to do and I know I didn't want to like move to New York and like fight like the knife fight of like jazz gigs in the I just like I don't want to do that. And what was this? Is there a scene in Baltimore? And they mean DC is right there. That's kind of yeah there. It's actually was interesting. where I grew up was kind of ten minutes outside of the city, so we're really close to that. And there was there was there was like a rock scene. They're like I've recording studio and stuff like that, and then there was like a kind of a church funk music scene and interesting, and there was a hip hop stuff going on that I wasn't involved in, but and then there was a blue rest scene and because I was where I lived, I was actually kind of like close to a lot of farms and there was a really great bluegrass band from Maryland called seldom scene, and that's high larned Dobro either was a legendary Dobro player that live like close to where I was, and you know, that was so being exposed to all that Baltimore...

School, but to make a living for me I could. I didn't really see much of a path at that point. All right, right, I asked my high school band teacher, who was great, names Mr New I said I want to teach. He says don't do that yet. It's like come back in twenty years. You got to go out, get some stuff and teach you stick. Yeah, right, he's just go out there and travel the world gets sick of it, get your ass kicked and learned some stuff and then come back and you'll probably enjoy teaching, which I think probably is in my future. I hope. You know. MMM, you have a great story about coming out, speaking of teaching, when you got to La to get guitar students. Sure you went to Guitar Center. Yeah, yeah, so I got here, you know, I saved up what I thought was a lot of money. HMM, and it turns out it's not a lot. Security to Los Angeles its Los Angeles and you know, lamps and rugs and security to pot it's just what a nightmare. So you have those. When you first moved it I was, you know, I'm looking at buying those. You know, I I really need to work and yeah, just kind of didn't really know what. I applied for a job at like Barnton noble and I didn't hear about you know. I just think what what I do here? And I said why? I could teach guitar lessons. So I went to Guitar Center. I had to envelope business cards at that time. For kids that don't know what that is, that's a card that has your phone number on it, you know. Right, yeah, I does anymore, but I'm not sure they may coody. It has a youtube channelized. Right. So I had a bunch of my business cards and I put a forty dollar bill in the envelope and I walked into the Guitar Center. Said who works here six days a week, seven days a week? WHO SELLS GUITARS? They said that guy. You know the why. I said Hi, I'm drew. It's the Nice to meet you. I teach when you sell guitars. If you wouldn't mind giving one of these out, especially to beginners, you know, and there's you know, there's forty dollars in there and I said I'll be back next month with another envelope. If, if you give me that and I've got a bunch of students and was able to make a living the first year I was out here, and I tell that story to people to illustrate how la can treat you. You it's it's a really challenging city to move to and I think I wasn't a very hustily type of business person. I just wasn't. But necessity made me think about those things and I say that story really taught me. Like you can be really good and be in your apartment alone. You have to do something, whether it's bribe a guy a guitar center for lessons, which probably wouldn't work these days, you know, but like or whether it's teachers are getting kicks, you have to take it upon yourself to get out of your home and make something happen for you somehow, and that is a good thing to think about for people who might want to do this. Like people might do it a lot more on the Internet now, but it's it just it doesn't happen just from you just being good at music. You have to have some kind of ingenuity or some kind of a right way, without seeming like like a complete dickhead Hustler, somehow you know. So that's that's what that story is about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you came out here and I don't know you too. I also heard story about Barry Squire and how. You know, he's a guy who puts together bands for people. And need you know that? You hear that name when you when you move out here, you know you gotta go very squire. Yeah, and you got to know Berry Squire and Yep, auditioned and auditioned and auditioned and auditioned, and yeah, that was the process that you know. That's how too. So, yeah, I moved out here. The the the big part of that I should mention is my older brother had done this. He played an aver leavin the band, and then he wasn't doing it anymore. God, he like moved on to producing and he was song and now he works in the business side, but at that point he was like running sessions with all these guys, and that was my really big education to what I was kind of talking about earlier of things missing from like I was out there playing like Donalie or whatever, right my strap and like my brother was really like okay, you know, and then I was hearing they were like in the same place like recording, and I was like, oh, that's a I wouldn't know how to playing that kind of part on that. So I was always hanging out with those guys cool and just kind of learning and and you know, they'd be like those jeans aren't really like you know, you look like a college kid, like you gotta maybe buy these ones. You know, it was Ay, it was what an education and like that's not how you played on a rock song, you know. So I just really soaked that up and I heard them talking about the gigs and it's like all you gotta Call Barry Squire. He put together auditions and I knew he's running a business, you know, so if you show up and you suck, he's never going to call you again. Even if you don't get the GIG, you have to represent his business well, you know. So I really anytime you called me, I really learned the material really well. You'd always call me after say they called somebody else, you know, if they thought his jeans were cooler. That the feedback I got a lot at the beginning from people aren't I'm kind of like a nerdy looking dude, like I'm not.

I'm not like slash, you know right. So he would always call me with feedback and say, like you sounded great, they thought you were one of the better players but, like, you know this, like stylistically it wasn't really a fit. I got that feedback a lot from him, but he would always call me to audition because I've make him look okay as far as like right if he if someone's paying him and a bunch of Bozo show up adult on the music, that doesn't so he I got a lot of auditions through him and a lot of failure because it was and a lot of that like you're not right for the GIG or stylistically it didn't really you know, man out. Or they wanted a guy with tattoos and I just had to keep I'm like, I'm not going to go get tattoos and be it's just not me. Right, ran it was. That experience led me to an audition for Demilovado and it was like nobody knewho she was. Like my brother's friends didn't want to do it, you know what I mean? It was all this new Disney and they were look kind of like the clean cut, kind of nerdy kid like fit right, so right, and I was. I didn't drink a lot at the time and like I think that was like they didn't they just didn't really want party, right, like rock kids, you know. They wanted like someone's going to be reliable on the road and and like I think the Clean Cup, kind of like nerdy look worked right. So, yeah, I just think we're talking about just I just kind of went failed audition, fail adish and you're not right, you're not right, you're not right, and I found a thing. It's like, Oh yeah, nerdy with glasses that like learned the songs right. And the guy said, he's like you're the only one that like, like that second song had a cape on it, like you're the only brought a CAPEO. I'm like, how's that possible? I don't know, but seeing I don't know if that's true, but but it yeah, so that, I think, the interesting part about a Gig like that. And maybe this was a phase, and I don't know, we'll talk about it, because now you have become like kind of a goto musical director. You've kind of become a berry squire, sure, in this town, but there was this time when I first got here, especially like we're it's more like casting than it was a musical audition. Sure, you know. So, yeah, I could see how guys don't even you know, Capo's not the most important. It was the jeans, you know, and it was the haircut and like that's what was getting gigs, you know, and I was a pretty straightforward, nerdy looking white guy to you know, like you know. So there were gigs I just wasn't going to get. You know. Sure, and it's funny because I've talked about all other shows, but it's like I went down to melrose and spent a thousand bucks on closed one time and doors just opened up. Like next thing you know, I'm on the road doing an arena to her, you know, like literally, yeah, but that's part of it, I guess. You know, and it's part of it. And eventually you found your place with your look exactly, you know, and you found the thing to you have to look like you're on stage as at a performance in some way. For me, it wasn't getting tattoos and growing my hair out. It was like right, I kind of and it's funny when when the like the kind of amy winehouse things started, I kind of fit in with like I was like glasses guy with the top hat, like it worked right. But, like, I think people, and myself included, had of a lot of trouble with this idea of like yeah, I practice, I practice, and like I'd say go watch all your fair watch Jimi Hendrix at Woodstock. You know, it's like a Hee's like it's a fullon costume and led Zeppelin and all these things that we love and consider great music. You know, if you go to the fifty five bar in New York, it's like a bunch of guys dressed like they're at target, and that's like it. And I don't care. I go on, I close my eyes and the love music. It's amazing. Right. But if you talk about like popular tours, style has always been a it's not. This isn't like a this isn't nothing. That was invented in Los Angeles in two thousand and six right, like, watch woodstock videos. Yeah, it's watched the Beatles, you know, watch show business. It's not music business. It show you. Yeah, miles and all those guys and culture, they were suit slaying business, right, show business. Yeah, exactly. So I think like understanding that landscape is important, not that style is so so important about who you are. I don't, I think for me and you, we don't really but like, yeah, that trip to the store when I moved to La what's like, unfortunately, part of it, and my I didn't do it, just like you. And then like six months into that after, I did as I oh, here's gigs, all of the Sunnen and like I almost hate it, but it's it is what it is. It is what it is. Yeah's exactly right. Yeah, and that's not to say that playing is important either of I mean it is. I do think that it's. Well, I also came from a jazz place where you lead with your playing. Yeah, like that's all that mattered. Yeah, and then when you had a cool outfit on Oh man, now you're getting gigs, but you can't not play. You know, I'm out, no question. No. Yeah, so it's not about do you know, keep practicing, but then it's go spend some money on some clothes it. You'll be shocked at how much, how far that I'll get you. Exactly, in Los Angeles in particular, to it's like it's a movie town. Really,...

...it's a TV town, like people listen with their eyes. Yeah, you know, that's that's it really makes a difference. Answer. How did that lead to your first like MD GIG? That's a great question. That's so there's I think you may have even had them on the show, but Lauren Gold was the MD of Demi at that point and it was like a big mentor of mine. You know, I really just like learned, I mean just he's amazing, you know, and I was twenty three and just like learned a lot from him and he put the show together and he I think he got the Gig for like the WHO, like during like in between our first and second he just got really busy at you and I, and I think, you know, I did have him a music education. I think that people, the management maybe could see that, like when something was amiss on stage, I could maybe hear what was happening, you know, something like that. MMM. So Lauren couldn't do the say he wasn't really around a lot, for, like, e. they're doing a TV show, and he'd be like, I'm busy with, you know, the WHO or whatever crazy and he was doing so he said kind of like, you know, let Taubenfeld be in charge like a he seems to know out of those other twenty three year old idiots. He seems to be the at least you to get over there. You know, whatever. You said random and he said, you know, just just let you take take, take the reins, and we did a couple TV shows and went okay, and then it was all Pod, here's an arena tour, like drew your in charge and I was like what some music director. It's like, you know, it's the they say, every career has, you know, you got on a podcast talk about how great you know. You know, I practice so hard, but there's always luck, you know. Yeah, have to be lucky, and that was really lucky, you know, and the points of luck there were. Nobody had heard of that singer at the time and you know, I got to join her band and then she her career took off. Yeah, and then Lauren just stowed you the MD thing on me and right got me like a ton of like really high pressure experience, like really early in my career. And then he's really, really good for me, you know. Yeah, and then once you you've got that on your resume. Yeah, sort of leads to the next someone said has saw that, as in so many people. The list is long Megan trainer. And Yeah, just kind of I learned this like trade of like putting shows together and like the tracks and all that stuff. And then, yes, some I got off tour and you sit around for six months like when am I going to get again? Of the phone rings and we like what you did with that. Can you, couldn't you come do this one? And it just built on itself. Very, very lucky, you know. Yeah, and where you in the band? Every time you do that are was there also situations where you were just musical director and you put together the band and said, okay, go on to her. And then, well, that started maybe six seven years agoys. Usually just like one GIG would come when I would be in the band, play guitar and be the music director. And then for the first time, I think I was that was seleen a Gome with the time I got a call for another good gig and I said, well, what do I do? You know, do I pass this up? And I was home for like four weeks in between tours and I said, you know what, I pitched it to them. I said, can I hire the band do the arrangement to the song? I'll do I'll do the month of rehearsal and then I'll one of the bass players will be the band leader and he can take it on the road look after it. And they said great. I did that and it went went well, and then another phone call came, you know, it just enough came and I said, well, I can't just do this. Be The touring guid actually stopped touring a couple of years ago. It just because enough of that. Started a company called direction music with a few other MD's and we just kind of started putting shows together that we weren't playing it as well, which was really, you know, big step. Yeah, and did you prefer that or it's a great it's a great question. I mean I'm sure there's pros and cons to either side, you know, and maybe balance is the key on all that. I don't know exactly. I think. I think it's sort of that's another interesting thing in the music business. I think in America we think so much of like promotions, like the next you know, I got this job at the mail room and then I'm the secretary and then I'm the so I think a lot of people can think in like okay, I'm guitar player, got to be the MD and then I got to be stay at home md and then I got to be producer. Right, but those things don't necessarily have anything to do with why you like playing music. Right, right, there's something called the Peter Principle that like, you always get promoted to the job right above where you have most joy. You're like an electrician and you're really good at it and you so you put a lot of work into this. The great you're now you're the foreman, you're managing electricians and you're like, wait a minute, right, I don't have to do these like blog, papers, net, like you know, that's a good thing. So for me there was a little bit of that. We're okay, I love playing guitar. Okay, that. Now I gotta get put in charge of the band. Okay, right now. I'm okay, now I don't even have to play guitar. And I just put like, wait a minute, did I just say I don't have to play it? Like, wait, how do that? Why did I do that to myself? So right that in some ways it was great. It has been great because you can spread out, you're not tied to, you know, one artist saying I don't I don't like your haircut or I don't like how you play Guitar...

Right. We just had a lot going on. So and staying home, which was really great. But then I did find myself when covid hit and I had a lot of time to think, I was like, I really miss playing it right and bands. I just miss it. Yeah, that's really I think I was experiencing a lot of joy from that. So I kind of Said and put it out there, like Covid's done, I'm going to go go back on the road, you know, and luckily it happened, you know right. So I've been yeah, I went from road md to like I got enough calls to stay at home. So like, you know what, maybe I'll just go back and play in these bands little bit. Right. We'll see where that lands. Yeah, figure it out. Yeah, and cut to I mean, I don't quite want to get there. I want to cover some first. Cut to down. You're in Dwight, you Okos band and then you get a call from Casey must graves, but we'll get to that. I want to talk about like what kind of a leader you are as a musical director, and you the kind of guy that's like charts everything out and passes out a book. Or is it here's a CDs, learned to Shit and sure, and you know, are you do you? Are you writing interlude music a lot, or you more of just like you're playing the tunes and you know, they segue as it goes? Or is it great, great questions. Yeah, this, so I'll every once in a while do charge, but it's mostly you get stems these days. If anyone doesn't, you know, it's a breakdown of the album. Of F you don't know what stems are? Sure a lot of people do, but you know, it's like here's the drums alone and I'll send everyone their parts. Oh Wow, you know. Or and like make up mixes. So it's like here's a right, here's a some of the base up the base DB louder than everything else you can hear, and then here's the bass them alone, and like show up to rehearsal. This is like you should know that. Be ready to do some other stuff. Got Ya. And then, yeah, with the making, like like recording my own music so much. It's giving me the tools to like make sit down and record musical interludes, Intros to the show, all that stuff. Even sometimes arrangements of the songs. You know it say the last chorus going to do this and the hat drums are going to go half time. You can sketch it out at home like a you know, and set it to the band. Or sometimes it's nice, if you have really good players, just work it out rehearsals. If we're going to do something with the end of the song, let's see what happens in the room. That can be that can happen to but I think giving people as much information and as much access to stems, you know, before rehearsals will make your job in rehearsals a lot easier, because to me it's wasted time. Hey, can you solo that keyboard stems? I can get the actual parts. Like I could just send you the stem before rehearsal so we don't have to waste ten minutes getting the exact you know. Thank practice out. Yeah, because is rehearsal. This is rare. So right. And Yeah, as a leader I've had to learn a lot about my personality and how that functions in the strengths and weaknesses, you know, accepting like I'm not a very confrontational person. I'm just like easygoing you know, like I don't like need to be an arguments ever in my life. You know, right, but as an MD, you have to tell people when things aren't right or you have to say, I don't like that part. So that is something right that I it's like an uphill, it's like put that's a requires effort. It's not my natural state. So I just have to know that about myself. But you still have to do it. You can't stop. You can't say, well, my personalities non confrontation, I'm going to let that guy play. Yeah, it's crappy. That's what he hears many yeah, you have to crush people's dreams and all that stuff, but it's just I've had to learn that. That's that's actually a battle for me right now. Yeah, yeah, but it's also the stakes are high and that's what they're hiring you for. And exactly. Yeah, yeah, totally, and I've been told that I get a lot done while keeping like a relate, like nice atmosphere, which I think cool, like people enjoy the rehearsals, which which I think. I mean, that's a lot. That's it. That's like a dream, you know, and I mean yeahs not have to you know is that? Yeah, and I think it encourages people to just be prepared and do their job because they want to please you instead of they don't want to get yelled at or something short. Not sure. Yeah, and you have to figure tow that line, you know. And Yeah, like it's still like people can't, you can't get walked on for sure, you know. Right. Yeah, and so now that you're going to be out at as the the biggest MD in La, like, people are going to want to approach you, and that's another interesting thing. That probably is the case, because I was a musical director for a while too, and, like, people coming at you all the time is annoying. Yeah, you also need to have a Rolodex full of players, sure, so that you can keep tabs on who's in town and when someone calls, you got to have a person. Yeah. So what? What? What is the preferred way of someone to approach you? And, like, I guess it's a really discussion about networking, because it's a tricky thing about being pushy but not too pushy. And that's a great question. Yeah, and and and I can tell you that I really struggle with it because because, yeah, I am I try to have empathy...

...and say, when I moved to La I didn't know anything and I don't know where to go. It was gry and my brother's friends help me. So I like really do enjoy passing that on and I think have done a lot of that and a lot of coffee and a lot of phone calls of like here's the best advice I can give you, you know. But then sometimes in my life I just don't necessarily have like the time for like coffee or you know, I think everyone's that coffee all the time, right, you know, and I get it. I'm not not mad at all, but, like you know, we're on the road a lot and try to engage. Now I want to spend time with my close friends and my fiance and sometimes I'm realizing, Oh man, I really I feel the need to be in touch or I want to give these people asking for advice or to be in touch like some time, but I also don't have the time for my closest friend like like that. That's been an interesting thing to try to navigate, but I think letting people know what you do and what you're really good at is a good way to network and and to have it be very easily visible. You know, I think if you want to come here and you're really good at whatever, able to live or guitar or something like, if there's a way you can show someone that in an email with not a lot of information in it and like not like here's five youtube links, if you scroll to the two minutes in after the after the speech for three and you know, find a way like here's something of the editing. Yeah, exactly, so you can click on this thing and here's me playing guitar. The way that I want to show you right, this is what I do. You know, if you can make a quick and easy I think there's nothing wrong with reaching out and saying, like I I do this and I want to work and I think I could be valuable to someone like you. You know, I think where it gets to be a bummer as if it's like all the time, or if it's like hey, you don't have time this week to like cut of coffee, like upset about it or like you know, yeah, yeah, you know. And the live gig thing can be tough sometimes. You know, you want to talk good gotten network with people, but sometimes they're busy hanging out with their friends it's a tough thing. And what would you get? What would you tell people? I mean, I think all those things. I think it's just it's a I think it's just about being considerate of people. And then's like, you know, the Nice thing about being in La is that there is a certain expect it's not that weird to go and Schmooz because that's what we're all here for. It like La is a weird town of like everyone just coming here to exploit the resources. And you know, it's not. Nobody wants to live in La to a certain degree. You know what I mean. It's I love it. It's great town. Has Been Amazing, but there it is a you come here to be successful, you know, you come here to to so that it's like I had to get over that when I first got here because I'm not a Schmoozer. I don't really enjoy it. It's hard. Back then it was I had a demo in my hand and I'm a vacuum cleaner salesman walking up to people don't know me and I don't know that you know and I'm just like you sound a great at Caffecorti all that night. You know, you know, after they come off stage. Right now, I got to go harass them and like nobody wants to that, but at the same time everyone sort of expects it to a certain degree. So if you're just respectful, yeah, and don't take a lot of time like you're saying. That's why I back then I had a demo, so it was just like hey, can I give you my demo? Great to meet you, you sounded awesome. Get the fuck out, I mean, yeah, exactly, get in, get out, don't take a you know, take a little their time as you can, but I think that makes sense. But yeah, it is a tricky, tricky balance into sign and it's up to some degree. It's like you're probably going to screw it up because everybody has different expectations to you know's and you're not going to know that until you just do it. But if you want to work, you're probably better off screwing it up. And the other thing is is that you go to the next guy and you complain about this new kid who just moved in town. You're going to probably say his name at some point and he's effectively moved his name to the next person, whether it's a plane or not, you know what I mean? Sure, as long as it's not horrible, as long as it's just a little gas guys keeps on me and like, you know, as long as it's not like he's making racist comments. And you know, you know, if it's, if it's a deal breaker, yeah, and that's not good. But if you're just pushing a little too hard, probably not the worst thing in the world and you're going to learn. But right, and I think any everybody understands like, like you know, we all have done it. We all have and just like you just explain, like at some point you came to this town, and I'm the same way. It's another reason I like doing this podcast. It's like I learned all this from somebody and I'm I got to pass it on to the next person. That's how we how we keep this business afloat, I suppose you know, which is beautiful thing. Yeah, yeah, and there's another good thing I tell people to sometimes is, you know, get a crew of people your age if you can, and try to like like when I moved here, it was whatever, ricky minor, and you know, it's like, yeah, I could call the guy who was the tonight shows music director. They're going to call people that they've been working with for thirty years. Right. They're not as like Hey, I'm here, I'm in town, I'm...

...great, it's okay. I've been working with this person for thirty years and yeah, amazing that. That's the same thing. I have these relationships with people who I'm going to call MMM. But if you can develop that for yourself, if you could have like if you're twenty three inch, moving down, you get a bunch of other dudes in the twenty in your good solid young crew and your plan hotel cafe every night and you meet some managers who are in their twenties and you meet some first of all, I'm probably going to hear about it. Someone's going to say, man, did you see that crew that play with that new artists on you know right, they're awesome and they're all cool and like, I'll probably hear about it more than like yeah, getting DM right right, and then also try to yeah, who's some who's someone's managing that? Like maybe twenty years from now some kids going to write that manager. Yeah, they hey, just move town. They be like, well, I've been working with this guy now for twenty years. You know what I mean. That's that's kind of what you want, right, is to just develop relationships in your own crew, in your own age group, that you can grow with and that will sorry, he's a calm an alliance, like survivor. They gonna get your alliance. Yes, like the guy that I'm allways going to call you and you're always going to call me. Yeah, and, like you know, we're together. We're gonna go take over the town. Yeah, that'll serve you. That'll serve you better than trying to get, like, yeah, some old MD to hire you, who's probably like you know, maybe will someday, but that'll be better. Yeah, yeah, sure. So the reason I know you is because you are now in the Dwight Yoaken Gig, yes, sort of, maybe forever, maybe not, we don't know. I hope forever, which seems to be a pretty cool fit for you. Turns out, after all these pop gigs that we've sort of talked about and you're you're really kind of a well, for one, you're the utility guys, so you don't play guitar once again. Maybe that's a Bummer, but you learned fiddle in like months, next to impossible to do. It's a little while. Incredibly impressive. Again, love to learn, obviously, sure. Don't even have to say it, because like nobody would do that unless they really love practicing and learning new stuff. So is it great to finally it feels like a more fit musically it for you. It really is fun. For me, I've always wanted to do something in this you know, I listen to a lot of a lot of records and dwhite s lane and, you know, and I loved white and and to get to play that music and to be challenged with that utility chair is it's like my brain is just an extacy. It's just right. It's just for me and and and it's you know, it's an amazing band heat. I've learned so much from him, you know, the way to play, the records, he talks about, the stories he tells. It's just it's been. It's been an incredible experience for me, both just to like experience music, but also to grow. You know, it's been great and it's kind of interesting too, because you have talked a lot about like show people who you are and that will lead to gigs, but you really went, you know, a far path around to get to where you finally wanted to be. So it's on the other hand, a lot of it is just you also need to recognize this Demilovado Gig is an opportunity and take it oh hundred. But don't wait, because you might have just sat around for the last ten years before Dwight you open came up and probably wouldn't come up because nobody would have heard of you, right, you know. On the other hand, it's like, and even Dwight, I'm sure when you heard that name, you got that call, you probably were like that's an opportunity. I have to it's about recognizing those moments of like jump on this one absolutely, and and and and yet for for me it was yeah, well, yeah, I want to play for these legendary singers like Bruce springsteen. And you know what, Yo, it's like no one's going to calm me right for that ever. You know, you know when when you're twenty four and just move to La and it's just see, you have to work. And and not to say like the I mean the the Demi experience was incredible, like learning experience as well, and like heads right fun, but like that was that was the type of thing that that was that I could do at the time and it was the yeah, I recognize it. This like this is where I need to be, you know, right, and it was and it is really rewarding now to be it, because it would I be on those tours a lot and be playing a doughbro in like the dressing room, you know, like during the day. So it's nice to actually with Dwight, I just play the kind of stuff that I would play on my free time. Right, if I have a day off, I get to not play that on stage, which is I mean that's a lucky thing. Yeah, and then right almost the same time, you get a big call, sure from this Casey Musgraves, and I are now her musical director, which is like, I guess if you play your car, drive and now it's just pouring. Now there's these you know. I mean I guess this record of hers is not exactly country or you know, maybe is isn't as close as Dwight to what you like, but still it's like country artists are just raining down on you now, I mean...

...calling in your lap. Yeah, it's funny that the new record for for her, I really enjoy, you know, because a lot of my favorite country artists like Willie Nelson and white and Emmy Lou Harris, you know wrecking ball by Amy Leu and always on my mind by Willie, like they have really made records like this. Like I look at what she's doing as like completely in the lineage of a country artist, whether like this particular their record. Call what category, I'm like, I don't, don't, I'm not. I don't work it a CD store, you know what I mean. But but, like, what are those? It's like business cards, just in the same dry but yeah, I think this is a completely legitimate move in the in the lineage of great country artist exploring the sounds of it. Like listen to always on my mind by willing now. Some mean it's like s production, but somehow still sounds like Willie Hmm, unmistakably. And that's what I think of this record. It's like it's exploring the sounds of today, but it's no one else. You hear. This is a Casey record through and through, you know, lyrically the voice, and that that's what I think is important. People get really hung up with like what are we gonna call this one? Don't like it's a Casey muscos record. That's what it is, you know, to me. Yeah, but Um, yeah, I don't know. I I'm very I can't believe I'm very lucky with how the singers that are that I'm that are calling me these. I kind of you know. Yeah, I'm just very grateful to work with people that I admire as much like Casey and I loved both of their music. Was Fans right for before the gigs, which is rare for me at my point, at this point of my career, you know, and you your first get out the gate is the VMA's. Yeah, I mean a certain amount of pressure to that. No, sure, yeah, I started the song off at the end. It's a first gig out the gate is just you front of I don't know how many people watch the DMAS anymore, but I'm assuming some kind of millions. That's a good question. I don't know. But yeah, it was. It was something that to try not to mess up, for sure. Right. And is that the first time? Well, you must have rehearsed. Yeah, we were hursts and and and there was just a really good rapport right away. You know, she's so she's so like just nice and easy personality, like knows what she wants and just she's just started playing with us and it felt like Oh, this is this is going to be great, you know, right off the bat. But yeah, that that was a that's a tall order. You know, there wasn't there wasn't a whole lot of there wasn't any bar gigs or anything there, you know, warm up state fairs. It was just like here you go, be amazed. Yeah, for sure. And all of these are were just things that you enjoy doing. Yeah, I know, kind of it, because it's also a really chaotic, not the most ideal first gig. About that, you know, like sounds probably an issue because you've got so many bands going all the time, and it's yeah, it's a why? I mean they have a great they have a great crew there, so they did a good job. But yeah, it's you know, you turn on the TV and you see this wild sets and like it comes rolling on and off and like five minutes you're plugging in a guitar. It is it's chaos. You know something about it. I enjoy it. It feels like you're almost like, you know, coming out like you know, like the basketball teams and they're announcing, you know, Michael Jordan. You like walk onto this Eread, it feels more like like you're going into some kind of a sports matches, right. Yeah, at those things, like you just like get rolled up, like here you go, player Song. So it's a different kind of challenge that I enjoy, but it's not quite the feeling you get from like playing a bargain with your friend. Yeah, and it's interesting too, because the song starts out nylon string soft song. Yeah, so I'm sure it was crazy to be just like we go. Yeah, that and it came off great, by the way. It sounded amazing. It's very cool. Thank you. No, the set was awesome. You told story about the Piro. Oh Yeah, you're words like. I think is another good example of the crazy stuff that happens on these shows. Yeah, this is a guy. I mean, you know, we're up there and sound check and there's pyro that's right next to us and they and they test it and then the entire guitar goes out of tune with forty five second. This is sound check, you know, so frantically to you know, it tuned the guitar and then, and I'm glad we did it because I'm when we actually did the the show. I stepped to the side and waited for that to go and they let it and I sat down with an intune guitar. flum. But I also think is another example of how on your feet you've got to be sure. Like that had to be a move that you first of all took in, you know, and then reacted to, because if that had happened again at the show, who knows if you would have had a second game. I mean it's just you and an out of tune guitar, you know, on TV. Yeah, you know that is...

...those things can be a gauntlet that are very like different than what the practice room has to offer, for sure, you know, and it's a different and I did a lot of exploring on that, honestly, in covid think if you ever heard of Alexander Technique and you've told me about it, it's I just I found this like interesting teacher, Gurgle guy named Bill Connibal, who's a cellow teacher. But like, I studied just overall like like the body mechanics and a lot of emotional and nervous system information to like, because a lot of people you get to sit in your bedroom and your hands feel a certain when you go out on the stage and they clam up. MMM, and I was kind of really interested in that difference. How do I be on stage and have it feel like a bedroom? And that was really helpful. I mean that I can say that it transformed how I've been playing this year. You know, just been cool. That's yeah, because your second Gig is now Saturday night live. Right, no pressure. There is live TV in front of I don't know, millions of people. Again, you know, it's a it's quite a trial by fire, I guess you know, getting into this Gig. Sure, but and now you've got to the interesting thing too, and we've got a had banned discussions about it on d white because there's not much else to do when we're just sitting around. But now you've got to figure out how to take and I was also I've listened to the record many times now, because I'm also a huge fan, and it's very mellow and the you know, in the one of the both of the songs on Satura night live or you know, mellow tunes and drummer with a Shaker, you know, and and how have you. I'm sure you've got thoughts about how does that? How you going to translate that into an arena tour? That's going to happen, sure, January, you know. Sure. And I think it's a fun a lot about like it as La Musicians, how we think about these things, you know, and I think it's interesting. Now I'm my fiance's a not a musician, you know, and I talked about music with her, like she's a huge music fan. Of really like here's things in a way that I think is informative. And I think in La we use a lot of vocabulary like smashed and crushed and, you know, stamped out. But you know, we annihilated that song right, burned it that, you know, kill. It's a very aggressive vocabulary that we used to like think of. Okay, this performance was good because we were like like on ten, you know, and it's been an interesting learning experience. I think that's not really like a vibe that that like that's if you listen to her music. To me, it doesn't really fit like just going and smashing everything right, no nuance. Right. So she is such a good director of like tastes and what like her performances are going to be that I've kind of taken a deep breath. It's usually okay, it's on me to make this smash, you know, and I'm like, okay, if we like take a deep breath, make the band sound really good, she is able to deliver a compelling performance, you know, and we don't, and we can keep it tasteful and keep it like in the vibe of how she's singing these songs, and that that has been a really cool thing, that it's like, Oh, just trust, trust her, she's gonna she's going to make this good if we just sound good, we don't have to like artificially make this sound like wwf intro or around. You don't even it doesn't. That would actually be kind of weird, you know. So that's been that's been the learning experience. WEIRDS and like kind of not that unusual really, if you you know, and a lot of pop acts especially, it's like you they just ramp everything up, you know, to hundred and ninety five and yeah, everything lars about taste. Really, we're in arena, is play loud, everything's on ten right, and I think that's that's for some singers that really works and I know, and I think you know, if you listen, that's a wise thing. Let her lead. She will make this compelling because she's, in my opinion, of very compelling artist with a lot of vision. So it's like, okay, we don't need to we don't need to be on ten. Our dynamics can be a lot different between the nine and a half to ten, which is most pump shows. Right, right, let's let's let's, let let it breathe a little bit and I think her fans will appreciate that. I think it will stand out on shows like the VMA's and festivals. I think it'll stand out. MMM, preslutely, you know. And what a luxury as an MD to have such a talented artist, because I'm sure a lot of the gigs that you have done you haven't had that lucky. You've done a lot of youtube people and you know, dumpsters are all great. Just shut they're all great, but there are different dynamics. Sometimes you're filling in the gaps, you're holding it all together to make sure the artist can get through a song. You know, maybe just because of an experience now, because they're not talented, sure, but to be with a seasoned person who's played hundreds of shows and arenas and and sheds and whatever. Yeah, it's nice, it really it's it's lucky, you know, to have that on...

...our team. You know, we're like we got ya, and that that is. That has been even some of the some of the more pop people. I think people would be surprised at Hell town, you know, like like like making train or someone I work with four years and she's just really like talented. You know, rights and produces all their stuff and since and tune and, you know, does all our own harmony. You know, it's and sometimes people put that they're making pop music. It's there's not much to see here. And Yeah, I've gotten to see behind the curtains and of that. Wow, this person's really right. Has has a lot, you know, going on. Yeah, it's cool. Well, thank you so much for coming on and talking to me for a way too long ago, taking up your whole day, because I'm just fascinated. It's been so great and it's cool that we I mean we haven't spent a lot of time together as far as you know, years or anything, but we do spend a lot of time together and I still can have a towhour conversation. You know that. I think that's a that's a road skill. Yeah, in a certain way, you know. But it's been nothing but awesome talking to you and thank you so much for coming. Thanks. I love what you're doing with this thing. So well, best of luck. Well, tell five hundred of your closest friends. I will, I will. Well, I guess I need to brush up on my Emily Dickinson. Man, what a great, great, great conversation. I hope you guys got a lot out of that. So I will say in terms of all of this chop talk, and I maybe I've said this on the show, I'm not sure, but you know, it's not like you don't have to have chops, or you shouldn't have chops and be able to solo and and do crazy stuff. It's more about knowing when to use it and when not to use it. And and I think in terms of instagram and Youtube and all that stuff, there should be just as many examples of your tasteful playing and simple playing as there is your crazy, awesome soloing. But at the same time, if you're on stage with an artist and he turns to you and says go you got to be able to blow and you got to be able to go and do you know something that's impressive to people and and something chop oriented. So it's not like you know you can be lazy about it, it's you. It's just the more things you know, the more gigs are going to have and the more gigs are going to be able to take and the more people are going to want you on the GIG. It's about being a well rounded player. I loved when he was talking about making his own music and you know, the fact that he does that as an outlet and also to maintain some empathy for the artist that he works with, because I think one of the best things you can do as an MD for your artist is to show up with an open mind because ultimately my job, your job, isn't it, as musical director, is to help them to achieve what they're trying to do creatively and musically and whatever. So it's you know, obviously sometimes you're going to be called upon to have some input musically and creatively, but other times your job is just to try to translate. So if your ego gets too involved and you're not going to make decisions for the right reasons, maybe, but it also made me think that I don't think you need a reason to make music. You know, and if you're a true creative, then you have to create. You know, if you're a true songwriter, than you have to write songs in your life is not going to be complete if you're not doing that. And you maybe not going to make a million bucks and maybe the stuff you make isn't even going to be the greatest stuff, but it's more an exercise for your soul, I think, and that's my opinion, and as a person who has to create, it just has to happen. And and you I think the older you get sometimes, or the more you go down a sideman path, the less reasons you have to make your own music. Do you need a reason other than you need to create? And if you're the only one who hears it, or your your wife or your kids or your your mom or your dad are the only ones you hear it and maybe you can get some enjoyment out of it, it's you've put something good into the world, or at least something real and something from yourself into the world, and I kind of think that's all. That's always a positive. I mentioned the diploma program at Berkeley versus the degree program in Berkeley's a little unique because it offers a degree program which is just a normal college and you take academics, or you can go diploma route, which is no, you don't take academics. It's just basically becomes a trade school for music and it costs a little less and you do less credits and at the end you get a piece of paper that says that you're really needs. Drew mentioned the fifty five bar, which is in New York City in the West village at fifty five Christopher Street, and it's a really amazing bar. That's I've seen my favorite guitar player, Mike's turn there a couple of times. It's a great place and I guess they've been kind of struggling during the...

...pandemic, but they are now reopened and I was just on their website. Tickets are available to shows currently and Mikes turns actually playing there on December thirty one. So next time you're in New York City, maybe show some support for live music and and for a live music clubs and check out the fifty five bar. And I did mention that we have a tradition that when a muse musicians name comes up a conversation. Generally we say phenomenal player, amazing player, and we mentioned Jennifer condos and I don't know her personally but I've only heard incredible things and I feel bad that we didn't have a reaction for her. So Jennifer condos, phenomenal bass player. Well, I hope you enjoyed the show and I hope you have an absolutely fabulous holiday season and hopefully I will speak at you in two thousand and twenty two. That's a lot of hoping, but what can I say? I'm a hopeful person. Thank you for listening. Wow, you've made it to the end. I'm hoping it's because you completely enjoyed yourself and are now filled with knowledge and inspiration to move forward with your dreams. If that is the case, and you would like to stay informed of new episodes, live events in general news, please go to dive Bar rockstarcom and sign up for the mailing list. If you have any questions, comments, corrections or complaints about anything you here on the show, please email me at fan mail at dive Bar Rockstarcom and you may even end up on the show. We at the dive Bar Rockstar podcast with all of our hearts. Thank you for listening, and remember it's all about dreams.

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